The Darlie Routier Case

	2	                DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
	6   THE STATE OF TEXAS             }  NO. F-96-39973-J
	7   VS:                            }   &  A-96-253
	8   DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER            }   Kerr Co. Number
13	                  REPORTERS RECORD
14	                     JURY TRIAL
15	               VOL.  43  OF  53  VOLS.
16	                   January 28, 1997
17	                      Tuesday
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		                   C A P T I O N
	4		BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Tuesday, the 28th day of
	5	January, 1997, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of
	6	Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for
	7	a jury trial before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
	8	Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
	9	with a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10	court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11	Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12	follows:
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2		     A P P E A R A N C E S
	6	Criminal District Attorney
	7	Dallas County, Texas
	9	     BY:  HON. GREG DAVIS
10		Assistant District Attorney
11		Dallas County, Texas
13	     AND:
15		Assistant District Attorney
16		Dallas County, Texas
18	     AND:
20		Assistant District Attorney
21		Dallas County, Texas
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	4			Attorney at Law
	5			2650 Maxus Energy Tower
	6			717 N. Harwood
	7			Dallas, TX 75201
10			Attorney at Law
11			2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12			717 N. Harwood
13			Dallas, TX 75201
16			Attorney at Law
17			Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18			820 Main Street, Suite 200
19			Kerrville, TX 78028
22			Attorney at Law
23			Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24			820 Main Street, Suite 200
25			Kerrville, TX 78028
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	3		Attorney at Law
	4		901 Main Street, Suite 3601
	5		Dallas, TX 75202
	9   AND:
11		Attorney at Law
12		820 Main Street, Suite 211
13		Kerrville, TX 78028
14			APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15				Detective Jimmy Patterson
16				only on one date in trial
17   AND:
19		Attorney at Law
20		620 Earl Garrett Street
21		Kerrville, TX 78028
22			APPEARING FOR:  Witness
23				Officer Chris Frosch
24				only on one date in trial
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				     P R O C E E D I N G S
	3	January 28th, 1997
	4	Tuesday
	5	8:30 a.m.
	7			(Whereupon, the following
	8				proceedings were held in
	9				open court, in the presence
10				and hearing of the
11				defendant, being
12				represented by her attorneys
13				and the representatives of
14				the State of Texas, but
15				outside the presence of the
16				jury, as follows:)
19			THE COURT:  Mr. Mosty, are you ready?
20			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, that
21	depends on what we're getting ready to do.
22			THE COURT:  Well.  All right.  Where
23	is Mr. Mulder?
24			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I don't know,
25	your Honor.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  All right.  Let the record
	2	reflect that these proceedings are being held outside the
	3	presence of the jury and all parties in the trial are
	4	present.
	5			Mr. Mosty, you will be representing
	6	Mrs. Routier for this hearing.  It's past 8:30 and I have
	7	told everyone to be here at 8:30.
	8			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Yes, sir, I
	9	will represent Mrs. Routier.
10			THE COURT:  I figured that is what we
11	will do.
12			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  If that is okay
13	with the Court?
14			THE COURT:  That is fine with the
15	Court.  Fine with the Court.  All right.  The purpose of
16	this hearing today is we're discussing the microphones
17	that were put out at the cemetery.  And Officer -- let
18	the record reflect that Officer Patterson is present, and
19	he has been appointed an attorney for this purpose, Mr.
20	Albert Patillo, from Kerrville; and Officer Frosch has
21	been appointed Mr. Steve Pickell, P-I-C-K-E-L-L, of
22	Kerrville.
23			And, Mr. Patillo, you have conferred
24	with your client?
25			MR. PATILLO:  Yes, I have, your Honor.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  And, what is the result of
	2	that conference?
	3			MR. PATILLO:  We will decline to
	4	testify further in this matter.  And my client, on my
	5	advice, will take the Fifth.
	6			THE COURT:  As regards to the
	7	microphones at the cemetery?
	8			MR. PATILLO:  Yes, sir.
	9			THE COURT:  All right.  Will you, have
10	Mr. Pickell, and his client, step in, please.
11			And, let the record reflect that
12	Officer Frosch -- and I am embarrassed, I have forgotten
13	your first name.
15			THE COURT:  Officer Chris Frosch,
16	F-R-O-S-C-H, is present, and with his attorney, Mr. Steve
17	Pickell.
18			And you have conferred with your
19	client, Mr. Pickell?
20			MR. PICKELL:  Yes, your Honor.
21			THE COURT:  Okay.  What is the result
22	of that conference?
23			MR. PICKELL:  Your Honor, Detective
24	Frosch would assert his Fifth Amendment right.
25			THE COURT:  Concerning the testimony
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	as regards to the recording devices or the microphones,
	2	or whatever, that were put up at the cemetery, and only
	3	regards that, concerning only that portion; is that
	4	correct?
	5			MR. PICKELL:  That is correct, your
	6	Honor.
	7			THE COURT:  All right.  Fine.
	8	Anything, Mr. Davis?
	9			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.  At this
10	time, the State would indicate that we believe this
11	testimony is not relevant, it's improper impeachment.
12	And, again, I'm talking about the subject of the mike on
13	the grave site.  And we would ask that the Court instruct
14	Mr. Mulder not to go into these matters any further in
15	front of this jury, because again, we feel the
16	prejudicial effect here, of having to inform the jury
17	that these officers have taken the Fifth Amendment.
18			Again, we believe that the matters are
19	irrelevant and that they are improper impeachment.
20			THE COURT:  The State is not going to
21	use anything that came out of that?
22			MR. GREG DAVIS:  That is correct.  We
23	are not going to go into that matter.  We're not going to
24	offer any of those recordings, video or otherwise, so we
25	did not intend to talk about that matter in front of this
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	jury.
	2			THE COURT:  Was there any exculpatory
	3	material in that?
	4			MR. GREG DAVIS:  No, sir, but in all,
	5	in caution, I did turn over those matters to the defense.
	6			THE COURT:  So the defense has those
	7	tapes?  You gentlemen have those tapes?
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, they are
	9	the ones that first went into this matter.  We didn't go
10	into anything at the grave site.  They did.
11			THE COURT:  All I want to know right
12	now, Mr. Mulder, is:  Do you have those tapes?
13			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I have some
14	tapes.  I don't know whether I have those.
15			THE COURT:  Did you listen to them?
16			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
17			THE COURT:  When were they given to
18	the defense?
19			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, we didn't
20	get into the case until --
21			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Probably sometime in
22	November, I believe.
23			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  So, if it's like
24	everything else, it came in at the last minute or
25	sometime in January.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, let me
	2	describe that, your Honor.  There is a video tape, that
	3	is obviously taken from a vehicle near the grave site,
	4	that you can see it panning on various people.  And, then
	5	you hear the audio.
	6			Sometimes the audio -- it depends on
	7	how close they were to the mike, on whether or not you
	8	could hear it.  But that video is -- it starts off with
	9	some gentleman out there watering the grave sites,
10	apparently an employee, and is, I am guessing, it covers,
11	maybe, as much as 14 hours that day.
12			THE COURT:  Well, then the video
13	does --
14			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  So it's hard to
15	say, and our copy -- I don't know what the State's copy
16	is like -- our copy is not all so great on the video
17	part.
18			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I would
19	like to point out to the Court, that I think felonious
20	conduct on the part of the police officers during an
21	investigation is always material.
22			It goes to the integrity of the
23	investigation.  And, you know, whether they like it or
24	not, they are the ones that opened this up.  We didn't go
25	into anything at the grave site.  The prosecution did.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			And, you know, they have to take the
	2	bad with the good.  They were smiling and telling jokes
	3	when this video was on for the jury.  And now they have
	4	got to take the corresponding responsibility of what this
	5	has brought.
	6			So, any time the investigation has
	7	been compromised by felonious conduct on the part of the
	8	officers, it's always admissible to the jury.  And, I
	9	would certainly caution the Court, or remind the Court,
10	that they can't take the Fifth on part of their
11	testimony.
12			They are like everybody else when it
13	comes to getting on the witness stand.  They can't assert
14	the Fifth just to a certain matter.  And say, "I don't
15	want to talk about that, and I want to hide behind the
16	Fifth Amendment."
17			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And not only on
18	the relevance issue, the Court has got to remember, that
19	Cron has testified that he decided within 20 minutes
20	that -- of the defendant's guilt, that the Rowlett Police
21	Department was informed of that, that Mr. Davis was on
22	the job within five days after that, and that this -- and
23	this whole focus, as I said in my opening statement, she
24	became the target in the rifle scope, at the beginning,
25	and the methodology and how Rowlett went about
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	investigating this, and choosing not to investigate other
	2	things, is directly shown by going out and putting an
	3	illegal bug out in a graveyard.
	4			THE COURT:  Okay.  So you're using
	5	this to impeach the officers; is that correct?
	6			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I don't know
	7	that impeach is the right --
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Not exclusively.
	9			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  We're using it
10	to show what they did.  It's just a simple fact of how
11	they investigated it.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  But, Judge, once
13	again, they brought it up.  We didn't go into this
14	matter.  And now they have got to take the bad with the
15	good.
16			THE COURT:  Let Mr. Hagler make his
17	objections.  These are the real objections.
18			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  Well, your Honor, a
19	couple things as far as the facts.  They are arguing
20	irrelevancy, your Honor.
21			Again, I think Mr. Mosty has already
22	stated, that certainly it's relevant, in the fact that
23	the defendant was targeted in this case within 20 minutes
24	as being the assailant.
25			And, certainly, this would have some
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	relevancy as to the jury, in our showing that there is a
	2	motive on the part of the police department to actively
	3	pursue the defendant and to target her as the assailant
	4	in this case.
	5			Secondly, your Honor, they have --
	6	again, they, of course, have offered the tape.  They made
	7	the issue of the grave site matter in this case.  They
	8	have injected this matter in front of the jury.
	9	Certainly, we're entitled to bring out all of the
10	circumstances surrounding the grave, the grave site
11	matters, you know.
12			Furthermore, is the fact that they
13	have made the issue of lack of remorse at the grave side
14	an issue, and we're entitled to elicit all of the
15	testimony from these officers.
16			I might mention, they're talking about
17	tapes and the video.  Now, to my understanding, and I
18	don't know all of the facts, obviously, but there was an
19	open wire on this grave side.
20			There may well be matters other than
21	that which appears on the tape, and on the video
22	surveillance.  Of course, the tape is the intercept
23	problem we have here.
24			But we don't know what all transpired
25	out there.  We don't know who was privy and overheard all
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	of these oral conversations.
	2		              As I understand it, if the Court
	3	denies us an opportunity to confront and cross examine
	4	these witnesses, we're denied the opportunity of
	5	eliciting all the facts and testimony surrounding the
	6	grave side event, and incidents.  And, I would further
	7	submit to the Court, that the Court can't simply rely on
	8	the blanket assertion by the State, that there is no
	9	exculpatory statements made during any of these
10	intercepted conversations.
11		              I think it's for the Court to make
12	that decision.  It's for us to be able to elicit that
13	such information by means of cross examination and
14	confrontation.
15		              Your Honor, but if the Court rules
16	that and prohibits us from cross examining the witnesses
17	concerning their knowledge, the conversations, the events
18	surrounding the illegal intercept of the conversations at
19	the grave side, that would constitute a violation of the
20	defendant's Fifth and Sixth rights under the U.S.
21	Constitution and the Fourteenth Amendment rights.  And
22	Article 1, section 10 of the Texas Constitution, and
23	specifically the right to confront and cross examine the
24	witnesses concerning the events surrounding the illegal
25	intercept.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Furthermore, your Honor, it would also
	2	prevent us from going in, or offering in front of the
	3	jury, the testimony regarding the credibility of the
	4	witnesses, their motive and intent surrounding their
	5	investigation in this case.
	6			THE COURT:  All right.  Fine.  The
	7	Court finds -- that -- the Court holds this is improper
	8	impeachment evidence.
	9			The officers actions do not reflect
10	upon the officers -- the officer who has testified so
11	far.  His actions do not reflect upon his character for
12	truthfulness or untruthfulness regarding his testimony in
13	this case.
14			Any recordings that may have been made
15	were not admitted as evidence, nor was there an attempt
16	to admit them as evidence.
17			For these reasons, I find that the
18	potential prejudice outweighs the probative value of this
19	evidence, and the defense is ordered not to go into it,
20	should these officers be recalled to the stand.
21			Now, if you want a running objection
22	on that, you may have it.
23			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  Yes, your Honor.
24			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Your Honor, we
25	can go into, for instance, things that refute, on that
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	tape, refute the inference that the State has done?
	2			THE COURT:  There was a videotape done
	3	by Channel 5.  I think everyone in the country has seen
	4	out there.
	5			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, you know
	6	what they didn't see, was the funeral service.  The State
	7	has illegally intercepted the funeral service where they
	8	stand around and pray.  The State offers the Silly String
	9	part of the day, and they have the prayer there, where
10	the first part of it is the prayer where they illegally
11	intercept a prayer at a grave side.  And we can't offer
12	that?
13			THE COURT:  Well, I think that has
14	already been offered.
15			MR. GREG DAVIS:  You know, your
16	Honor --
17			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  We have a video
18	of it.
19			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I don't think there
20	is any problem with Mr. Mosty or Mr. Mulder offering that
21	videotape.  I mean, whatever was visually recorded out
22	there, we certainly don't have a problem with them doing
23	that.  It's just the circumstances under which that was
24	gathered.  You know, if they can show what happened out
25	there, if they want to show that videotape.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  But we can't ask
	2	the --
	3			MR. GREG DAVIS:  So they have that
	4	option.  And they still get to show what they feel is
	5	important for them to show to this jury.
	6			THE COURT:  Well, anyway, that is
	7	fine.  If you want to do that, that will be fine, but
	8	that is the Court's ruling, and the Court will note your
	9	objection.
10			You don't have to object in front of
11	the jury for any purposes.  You will have a running
12	objection.  And, at 9:00 o'clock we will proceed.
13			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
14			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Just so I am
15	abundantly clear on this, are you telling me that if I
16	recall Detective Jimmy Patterson, that I can't go into
17	this matter at all?
18			THE COURT:  That's correct.
20			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And we can't
21	even go into the motive of how they conducted their
22	investigation?
23			It's been a central theme of this case
24	from the beginning, is that these men went to the -- went
25	to the stage of illegal activities, to try to target in
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	on this lady.  That has been the beginning of this case,
	2	and it is exactly what this case is about, in it's
	3	entirety.  Is that they never did anything, other than
	4	focus on Darlie Routier, and they wanted to do it so bad,
	5	that they would violate state and federal law to do so.
	6	And we are not allowed to go into that?
	7			THE COURT:  Well, the Court ruling
	8	stands.  Thank you.
	9			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, let me ask
10	this just for a little direction from the Court.  Does
11	the Court intend to give the jury any explanation or
12	clarification, or just let it --
13			THE COURT:  Well, we will go over the
14	charge at the appropriate time.  I'm happy to do that.
15			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I mean, you don't
16	intend to say anything to the jury.  You know, he was
17	plucked from the witness stand, rather inappropriately,
18	and I take it the Court doesn't --
19			THE COURT:  Well, I think both sides
20	agreed with that.  I don't think he was plucked from the
21	witness stand.
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, he refused
23	to answer any questions, Judge, until he had a chance to
24	talk to his lawyer.
25			THE COURT:  I understand that.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, if --
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  If they call -- I
	3	understand if I call the officers, I can't go into it.
	4	If they call them, can I go into it as impeachment?
	5			THE COURT:  Well, certainly if any
	6	door is opened.  I don't think they will be calling the
	7	officer, but they may very well do it.  But we want to
	8	stay out of that, because I am holding that that is not
	9	relevant in this particular case.
10			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I'll
11	suggest to the Court, that the door is opened if they
12	talk about any part of the investigation, because this
13	was part of the investigation.
14			THE COURT:  Well, let's take that up
15	at the appropriate time.
16			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, you know,
17	Judge, it kind of depends on -- it has interrupted our
18	strategy in this case.  And you know, I can go with it
19	either way.  I don't care what the rules are, just as
20	long as I know what they are.  If I understand what the
21	rules are, I can play by anybody's rules.
22			THE COURT:  Well, the rule now is
23	this:  Don't go into it.
24			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All right.  I
25	understand that.  But, are they going to call -- if they
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	are going to call the officers, I will be allowed to go
	2	into it?
	3			THE COURT:  Well, anything, Mr.
	4	Mulder, that is opened up by any examination, you will be
	5	allowed to go into.  That is correct.
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I would
	7	suggest to the Court, that if they go into anything,
	8	about an investigation, that this is part of the
	9	investigation.
10			THE COURT:  Well, we'll cover that at
11	the time that it comes.  That may very well be the case.
12			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Is the Court
13	going to allow, for instance, Mr. Frosch to get up and
14	testify about some things, and then in the middle of it,
15	prohibit -- or take the Fifth?
16			THE COURT:  The Court is going to
17	allow -- if Mr. Frosch is called, Mr. Frosch will
18	testify.
19			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Pardon me?
20			THE COURT:  If Mr. Frosch is called,
21	he will testify.  If the door is opened to anything,
22	certainly, you will be able to get into it.
23			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  So the Court is
24	going to let him get up and testify about some things,
25	and prohibit us from going into the full investigation?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  We are not going to go
	2	into whatever happened at the grave side as regards to
	3	the alleged recordings out there.
	4			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, what
	5	about the other officers who did it?  Can we call them?
	6			THE COURT:  We will go each one
	7	individually at the time.
	8			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  All right.
	9			THE COURT:  Anything else?
10			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  Just so I'm clear,
11	your Honor.  You stated that, of course, we cannot
12	question them in front of the jury, but we also are
13	prohibited from questioning them during the hearing, as
14	to any and all statements.
15			THE COURT:  You may question them
16	during the hearing.  Do you want to question the officers
17	now?
18			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, we
19	want -- one thing we want to know is we want to know
20	everyone who was involved in this.
21			THE COURT:  Well, can you give them
22	that information?
23			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And who knew
24	about it, participated in it, planned it.
25			MR. GREG DAVIS:  That I don't know.  I
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	don't know those facts.
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, maybe Mr.
	3	Davis needs a lawyer.
	4			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Maybe you do.
	5			THE COURT:  Well, I doubt that.
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I've got one.
	7			THE COURT:  I doubt that.  I think
	8	both sides -- all right, gentlemen, fine.  Excuse me, go
	9	ahead, Mr. Davis.
10			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I was just going to
11	say, in this matter, so that we can all be clear, if Mr.
12	Mulder believes that the door has been opened, would you
13	please instruct him to approach the bench, discuss this
14	matter with you, before he begins to go through that
15	"open door," because we both know what he is going to do
16	here.  He has done it in the past.
17			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I'll know
18	when the door is open.
19			THE COURT:  Both sides are so
20	instructed to approach the bench before you do that, if
21	that is necessary.
22			MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER:  Yes, sir.
23			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Thank you.  Yes, sir,
24	so we won't have a repeat of what he did on Friday.
25			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I'll do
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	that if it's not clear.  And there wasn't anything
	2	Friday.  There wasn't anything said Friday about this
	3	business.
	4			MR. GREG DAVIS:  No, I'm talking about
	5	the other agreement that we had that he broke on Friday..
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  There wasn't any
	7	agreement Friday, not to go into the fact that Patterson
	8	was --
	9			THE COURT:  Gentlemen, Friday has
10	passed.  Friday has passed, and what occurred, occurred.
11			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Yeah, well,
12	yesterday --
13			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I didn't
14	make any agreement with them, not to mention that, Judge.
15			THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Mulder,
16	fine.
17			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Y'all may have
18	had an agreement among yourselves, but I wasn't a party
19	to it.
20			THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder.  We do not
21	have any agreements with the Court.  Is that clear?
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Right.  Well, I
23	wasn't a party to that agreement.  I didn't have any
24	agreement with them.
25			THE COURT:  We understand.  Would you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	please modulate your voice.  I can hear you.
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I understand.  I
	3	didn't have any agreement with them.  The only agreement
	4	I had with them, was that their witnesses would be
	5	present until -- the ones under subpoena -- until I
	6	agreed to excuse them.  And I never made that agreement.
	7	I told them I would exercise that agreement Friday.
	8			THE COURT:  The Court understands what
	9	happened last Friday, and that is over and passed and
10	done with.  We're not going to discuss that.
11			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, there is
12	also, for instance, a motion in limine prohibiting going
13	into breast implants that Mr. Davis went right through
14	yesterday without bothering to say, "Is the door open?
15	Can I go into this?"
16			And now we're supposed to abide by
17	these things and the State doesn't have to?
18			THE COURT:  No.  You all abide by
19	whatever motions are in the file.
20			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge,
21	would the Court address that now?
22			THE COURT:  Both sides are instructed
23	to stay within the motions of limine that are in there.
24			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, they
25	understood that, Judge.  We went into it before the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Court.  You understood it, they understood it, but they
	2	barged right in.
	3			THE COURT:  All right.  Well, the
	4	Court will instruct both sides to remain within the
	5	motions in limine.  You both know what they are.  Let's
	6	stay with it.  If anybody does anything against it, well,
	7	let's stand up and object.  There was no objection
	8	yesterday.
	9			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, of course
10	not.
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All that would do
12	is call attention to it.  That is why we filed the motion
13	in limine, so we don't have to object.
14			THE COURT:  All right.
15			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And that is why
16	Mr. Davis did it that way.
17			THE COURT:  Gentlemen, gentlemen, we
18	are here this morning on the hearing on Officer Patterson
19	and Frosch.
20			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Well, may I go
21	back to my question?
22			THE COURT:  Yes.
23			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I would like to
24	know who all was involved in this?
25			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, he said you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	can go into that.  Let's call Patterson --
	2			THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Just a
	3	minute.  Calm down, Mr. Mulder.  I can only talk to one
	4	attorney at a time.
	5			If the State knows who was involved in
	6	it, you may please find out, and please advise the
	7	defense.
	8			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
	9			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  May we call one
10	of these gentlemen and find out?
11			THE COURT:  You may indeed.
12			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Mr. Patterson
13	is under oath, isn't he?
14			THE COURT:  He is indeed.
16	inquire --
17			THE COURT:  You may.  Who was
18	involved -- I'll inquire.  Who was involved in it?
19			MR. PATTERSON:  I don't want to answer
20	that.
21			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge --
22			THE COURT:  Well, all right.
23			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, he either
24	answers or goes to jail, doesn't he?
25			THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder, if I want
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	anything from you, I will ask you.  Is that clear?
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, yes, sir.
	3			THE COURT:  Thank you very much.  You
	4	are refusing to answer that on the grounds that it may
	5	tend to incriminate you; is that correct?
	6			MR. PATTERSON:  Yes, sir.
	7			THE COURT:  All right.  Fine.
	8			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  May we also
	9	identify that Mr. Frosch says the same thing?
10			THE COURT:  Mr. Frosch, is that your
11	answer?
12			MR. FROSCH:  Yes, sir, it is.
13			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  So, now we
14	can't even find out who was involved?
15			THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Just a
16	minute.  Just a minute, gentlemen.
17			All right.  All right.  The Court's
18	ruling is -- the Court's ruling stands as it is, as it
19	has been expressed.  And if you object to that, we will
20	note your objection.
21			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  No.  My inquiry
22	is, I want to know who else was involved.  The State
23	ought to know, this is exculpatory evidence.  This ought
24	to be turned over.
25			THE COURT:  If the State knows who is
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	involved, please inform the defense.
	2			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I mean, first,
	3	there ought to be an investigation going on in Dallas
	4	County as we speak about this.
	5			THE COURT:  Well, there may very well
	6	be one, but right now, we're in a trial in Kerrville.  We
	7	have completed this hearing, and it's five minutes until
	8	9:00, and at 9:00 o'clock I intend to continue the cross
	9	examination of Darin Routier -- or the direct (sic)
10	examination by Mr. Davis.
11			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  When is the
12	State going to give me that information?  I mean, it's
13	not going to do me much good in May.
14			THE COURT:  Well, the State -- Mr.
15	Mosty, we understand that.  Mr. Davis, should you learn
16	the information, give it to the defense as soon as
17	possible.
18			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir, I will.
19			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And are they
20	under a duty to inquire?
21			THE COURT:  Yes, they are under a duty
22	to inquire.
23			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I just want to
24	be clear, because if he never asks him, he might never
25	know it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Mosty, I think
	2	that Mr. Davis and Mr. Shook and Miss Wallace will ask.
	3			All right.  Thank you.  These
	4	proceedings are concluded.
	6			(Whereupon, a short
	7				Recess was taken,
	8				After which time,
	9				The proceedings were
10				Resumed on the record,
11				In the presence and
12				Hearing of the defendant,
13				But outside the presence
14				Of the jury, as follows:)
16			THE COURT:  All right.  Let's go back
17	on the record.  Briefly, Mr. Hagler has a couple more
18	objections he wants to make.
19			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  Your Honor, I will
20	be very brief here with the Court.
21			Your Honor, just so that we are clear
22	on the ruling, your Honor, it's our understanding of the
23	ruling that both, of course, Frosch and Patterson have
24	invoked their Fifth Amendment privilege against
25	self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			We further understand the Court's
	2	ruling, that in light of that invocation of the Fifth
	3	Amendment right, that we're prohibited from inquiring
	4	from those two officers, and I assume other officers who
	5	may be involved in this intercept.
	6			As to the:  One, we are prohibited
	7	from cross examining and questioning the officers
	8	regarding the intercept, and all facts surrounding the
	9	intercept.
10			THE COURT:  That's correct.
11			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  And furthermore, if
12	we were given the opportunity to question the officers,
13	we would go into matters such as the procedures utilized,
14	who initiated the -- who made the decision to initiate
15	the intercept, the individuals involved in the intercept,
16	how it was conducted, and any and all information that
17	was learned through the intercept, including matters, not
18	only those matters on the tape, but also matters that may
19	have been overheard but were not recorded by the
20	officers.
21			THE COURT:  All right.
22			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  And furthermore,
23	your Honor, we would also submit that the State has made
24	the assertion that there was no exculpatory matters on
25	the tape, and, again, we would urge that it's not for the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	State to make that decision.  It's one that only the
	2	Court can make, and the only one that we could bring to
	3	light through cross examination and confrontation of
	4	witnesses.
	5			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
	6			MR. JOHN HAGLER:  And finally, your
	7	Honor, we would ask for a mistrial, based on our lack of
	8	opportunity to cross examine the witnesses regarding
	9	this, and the fact that we cannot question Patterson
10	regarding these matters.
11			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
12	Now, had you made those objections prior to the ruling,
13	the Court's ruling would have been the same.  Regarding
14	the motion for a mistrial, the motion for mistrial is
15	denied.  With that in mind --
16			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Also, before the jury
17	comes in, if I could inform the Court, that during the
18	break, I delivered to Mr. Mulder and Mr. Mosty the names
19	of two officers who I was informed actually did the
20	taping.  So they now have those names.
21			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I don't have
22	the -- I would like the names of the co-conspirators in
23	the record, if we might.
24			THE COURT:  I think -- the names have
25	been delivered, Mr. Mulder.  Thank you.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  One point of
	2	that delivery is, that these are Garland Police Officers,
	3	which goes again, to show that they were not only -- not
	4	only had Rowlett PD focused in, but they had focused in
	5	with every other resource, and they brought in Garland PD
	6	to do the illegal bug.
	7			THE COURT:  Thank you.
	8			Now, I believe that Mr. Darin Routier
	9	was on the stand on direct (sic) examination.
10			Mr. Biggerstaff, would you have him
11	step in, please?
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  One last thing,
13	Judge, if we might.
14			THE COURT:  Oh, just a minute.  Okay.
15			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Aside from the
16	two names that we understand are Michael, R-O-B-E-R-B-S,
17	Roberbs.  Is that supposed to be a T?
18			MR. GREG DAVIS:  No, I believe it's a
19	B.
21	R-O-B-E-R-B-S.  And Darin Baker.  We want to know who
22	else knew of this plot.
23			THE COURT:  Well, I doubt that there
24	are conspirators or a plot, but in any event, the Court
25	has directed Mr. Davis to give you the names available,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	which he has done, and that will conclude this hearing.
	2	And have Mr. Routier step in, please.
	3			All right.
	5			(Whereupon, the jury
	6				Was returned to the
	7				Courtroom, and the
	8				Proceedings were
	9				Resumed on the record,
10				In open court, in the
11				Presence and hearing
12				Of the defendant,
13				As follows:)
15			THE COURT:  All right.  Good morning,
16	ladies and gentlemen.
17			Let the record reflect that all
18	parties in the trial are present, and the jury is seated.
19	And we will continue with the direct (sic) examination of
20	Mr. Routier by Mr. Davis.  You may proceed.
21			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Thank you, Judge.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Whereupon,
	5	was recalled as a witness, for the Defense, having been
	6	previously duly sworn by the Court, to speak the truth,
	7	the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined
	8	and testified further in open court, as follows:
11			  CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)
14			Q.	Mr. Routier, yesterday, do you recall
15	that we talked about your Jaguar?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	And, yesterday, do you recall telling
18	me what was wrong with that Jaguar?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	What was wrong with it?
21			A.	There was a tube that was going to
22	the -- one of the diaphragms that goes up into the
23	transmission.
24			Q.	Okay.  I believe that you had told me
25	yesterday, that it cost about three dollars to have that
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	car fixed, correct?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Now, on July the 1st, when you came
	4	down to the courthouse and you were sworn in, do you
	5	recall that we talked about the Jaguar at that time?
	6			A.	Yes, sir, I said that the transmission
	7	had gone out.
	8			Q.	Okay.  By the way, last night, did you
	9	have a chance to go over your prior testimony?
10			A.	No, sir.
11			Q.	Okay.  Did you talk to any lawyers
12	about your testimony?
13			A.	No, sir.
14			Q.	Nobody has talked to you?
15			A.	I talked to Mr. Mulder about my sister
16	being -- just came in town.
17			Q.	In July, when you came down, you told
18	me that the transmission was out, and it was going to
19	cost about three thousand dollars to fix that car, right?
20			A.	I don't remember if it was three
21	thousand.
22			Q.	Okay.  About three thousand?
23			A.	Well, I think it may have been more
24	around eight hundred.
25			Q.	Okay.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	It was a Turbo 400.
	2			Q.	Let me show you page 16 of that
	3	transcript.  Do you see where I said, "Would it be fairly
	4	expensive to repair the automobile just to get it
	5	running?"
	6				Do you see your answer, "About three
	7	thousand dollars".
	8			A.	Yes, sir.  (Witness nodding head
	9	affirmatively.)
10			Q.	Okay.  Was that your answer back on
11	July the 1st?
12			A.	Yes, it is.
13			Q.	And, in July, do you remember telling
14	me that you only had thirty-two hundred dollars available
15	to you?
16			A.	I don't recall.
17			Q.	Do you remember that?
18			A.	Oh, at the bond hearing?
19			Q.	Yes, sir.
20			A.	I remember saying that, yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  Now, if we can, let's talk
22	about your business for a while.  Yesterday, Mr. Mulder
23	asked you certain questions about your business, how it
24	was doing in 1996.  And if you could, tell me again what
25	you projected your earnings to be for 1996 for your
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	business.
	2			A.	I would project probably around a
	3	quarter of a million dollars.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Quarter of a million dollars.
	5	Okay.  Do you know what your income was through the first
	6	five months of 1996, sir?
	7			A.	I have no idea.
	8			Q.	Okay.  No ballpark figure?
	9			A.	No, sir.
10			Q.	How were you doing this projection of
11	$250,000?
12			A.	Just based on the first six months, I
13	did a hundred and eleven thousand.  We would have had
14	June, July and August of our biggest months, about 40 or
15	50 thousand dollars during those three months.
16			Q.	Of course, if your expenses are higher
17	than your income, it doesn't really matter how much you
18	are earning if you are spending more than you take in,
19	does it?
20			A.	It really doesn't matter.
21			Q.	I mean, it's not good, is it?
22			A.	No, but we weren't spending more than
23	we were bringing in.
24			Q.	Okay.  Are you sure about that?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Have you looked over your
	2	business records?
	3			A.	Not since -- no.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Is it possible that you could
	5	be wrong about that?
	6			A.	It's possible.
	7			Q.	Yesterday, when Mr. Mulder was asking
	8	you questions about your business situation, what records
	9	had you gone over to tell us about the condition of your
10	business?
11			A.	Just looking at my books.
12			Q.	Okay.  Bank account records, also?
13			A.	No, I have a CPA for that.
16				(Whereupon, the following
17					mentioned item was
18					marked for
19					identification only
20					after which time the
21					proceedings were
22					resumed on the record
23					in open court, as
24					follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Your Honor, at this
	2	time, we are going to offer State's Exhibit 50-B, which
	3	is the remainder of the Bank One records that were
	4	previously admitted as State's Exhibit 50.
	5			50-B contains the bank records
	6	pertaining to Testnec.  These have also been on file more
	7	than 14 days as a part of the other records.
	8			THE COURT:  When you do talk, please
	9	speak loudly.  The last two jurors are indicating that
10	they can't hear you.  Okay.
11			Make sure that you speak loud enough
12	so that gentlemen there and the lady in the pink back
13	there can hear you.
14			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
15			THE COURT:  Can you hear that?
16			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
17			THE COURT:  All right.
18			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, this
19	appears to be all 1995 records.
20			MR. GREG DAVIS:  It's right here.
21			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, if you're
22	ready, we're ready to be heard on this.
23			THE COURT:  I'm ready.
24			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I don't
25	think the records from 1995 are relevant or material.  We
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	have offered his income tax return that shows he grossed
	2	263 thousand.  Are they suggesting that he overstated his
	3	income so he could pay more taxes?
	4			THE COURT:  I think the exhibits will
	5	speak for themselves.  Are you objecting to the exhibit?
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I object to
	7	those.  I don't object to the -- so far as they go, to
	8	the records in	1996.
	9			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Well, your Honor, I
10	think, at this time, that we will agree to withdraw any
11	bank records pertaining to 1995, and simply then offer as
12	State's Exhibit 50-B, the records pertaining to 1996.
13	And in State's Exhibit 50-C, we will separate out 1995
14	and offer those for record purposes only.
15			THE COURT:  Is that satisfactory?
16			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, let me take
17	a look at these, Judge.
19			(Whereupon, the following
20				mentioned item was
21				marked for
22				identification only
23				as State's Exhibit No. 50-C
24				after which time the
25				proceedings were
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				resumed on the record
	2				in open court, as
	3				follows:)
	5			THE COURT:  All right.  So 50-C will
	6	be the '95 records offered for record purposes only, not
	7	to be shown to the jury.
	8			Any objections to that?  Anybody want
	9	to object to that?  Mr. Hagler?
10			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Excuse me, Judge.
11	I was trying to do five things at one time.
12			THE COURT:  We appreciate your
13	efforts, but are you going to object to the record
14	purposes only of 50-C?
15			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  No, not for
16	record purposes only.
17			THE COURT:  Thank you.  All right.
18	State's Exhibit 50-C is admitted for record purposes
19	only.
21				          (Whereupon, the above
22					mentioned item was
23					received in evidence
24					for record purposes
25					only, after which time,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1					the proceedings were
	2					resumed on the record,
	3					as follows:)
	5			THE COURT:  All right.  Any objection
	6	to the 1996 records?
	7			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  No, we have no
	8	objection.
	9			THE COURT:  State's Exhibit 50-B is
10	admitted.
12			(Whereupon, the item
13				Heretofore mentioned
14				Was received in evidence
15				As State's Exhibit No. 50-B
16				For all purposes,
17				After which time, the
18				Proceedings were resumed
19				As follows:)
22		        Q.	Mr. Routier, again, have you had an
23	opportunity recently to look over the records that I am
24	holding from Bank One?
25		        A.	No, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1			Q.	Okay.  And again, now showing you only
	2	those portions that have been admitted as State's Exhibit
	3	50-B, do you recognize the first page as being a summary
	4	for your transactions between January 1st and January
	5	31st, 1996?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.  All right.  And do we see that
	8	your deposits for January were twenty-two thousand, nine
	9	hundred and fourteen dollars and sixty-nine cents, is
10	that correct?
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	Checks paid out of your account were
13	twenty-one thousand, nine hundred and fourteen dollars
14	and forty-six cents; is that correct also?
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	As we go to the period of February the
17	1st through February the 29th, do we show deposits of ten
18	thousand, two hundred and eighty-two dollars and
19	ninety-three cents, checks paid out of fifteen thousand,
20	three hundred and forty dollars and sixty cents?
21			A.	Yes, sir, being a balance of $78.47.
22			Q.	Right.  And, for the period of March
23	1st through March 31st, do we see that you had deposits
24	of fifteen thousand, two hundred and fifty-four dollars
25	and seventy-eight cents, and checks paid out of twelve
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	thousand, six hundred and thirty-nine dollars and
	2	seventy-seven cents?
	3			A.	Yes, sir, with a balance of five
	4	thousand, three hundred and two dollars.
	5			Q.	Okay.  That is your ending balance,
	6	correct?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	And, for the period of April the 1st
	9	through April the 30th, do we have you with deposits of
10	twelve thousand, five hundred and thirty-three dollars;
11	and checks paid out of thirteen thousand, three hundred
12	and fifty-eight dollars and one cent?
13			A.	Yes, sir, with an ending balance of
14	four thousand, four hundred and fifteen dollars.
15			Q.	Okay.  And for the last period shown
16	of May the 1st through May 31st, do we have deposits of
17	thirteen thousand, three hundred and ninety-one dollars
18	and forty-seven cents, checks paid out of fourteen
19	thousand, forty-four dollars and eighty-two cents, and
20	your ending balance on May 31st was three thousand, six
21	hundred and ninety-eight dollars and forty-four cents; is
22	that right?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Mr. Routier, are you aware, that when
25	you add up the deposits, and the checks paid out, that
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	your deposits for the first five periods there shown were
	2	seventy-four thousand, three hundred and seventy-six
	3	dollars and eighty-seven cents, and your checks paid out,
	4	if you total those up, are you aware that they total out
	5	to seventy-seven thousand, two hundred and ninety-seven
	6	dollars and sixty-six cents?
	7			A.	No, sir, I was not aware of that.
	8			Q.	Are you aware, that when you look at
	9	the first five months that actually, you had a deficit of
10	nearly three thousand dollars?  Are you aware of that?
11			A.	No, sir.
12			Q.	Okay.  You know Willie Short, don't
13	you?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Okay.  Willie Short was your landlord?
16			A.	Yes, he is.
17			Q.	You had a rent each month of $525
18	dollars; correct?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	Was that due on the first of the
21	month?
22			A.	On the 1st or the 15th.
23			Q.	Okay.  Do you recall Willie Short
24	coming by or talking to you on June the 5th about being
25	late for your rent for the month of June?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Not in June.  I don't recall.
	2			Q.	You don't recall?
	3			A.	No, sir.
	4			Q.	Were you behind on your rent out
	5	there?
	6			A.	We're four months behind now.
	7			Q.	I'm talking about in June of 1996?
	8			A.	Just that one month.
	9			Q.	So you're one month behind on the
10	rent?
11			A.	It was not due until the 15th, or late
12	on the 15th.
13			Q.	Now, Mr. Routier, I want to direct
14	your attention back to June the 8th of 1996 when you went
15	to the Rowlett Police Department with your wife.  Do you
16	recall that date?
17			A.	Vaguely.
18			Q.	Okay.  Well, yesterday when Mr. Mulder
19	asked you about it, do you recall telling him that the
20	Rowlett Police Department asked you to give them a
21	statement?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Do you remember giving that statement
24	to them?
25			A.	Yes, sir, before the viewing.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  When you gave that statement,
	2	did you, in fact, give that in your own handwriting?
	3			A.	Yes, I did.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Do you recall it being six
	5	pages long?
	6			A.	I don't remember how long it was.  I
	7	haven't seen it since.
	8			Q.	Right.  Okay.
10				(Whereupon, the following
11					mentioned item was
12					marked for
13					identification only
14					as State's Exhibit No. 141,
15					after which time the
16					proceedings were
17					resumed on the record
18					in open court, as
19					follows:)
22			Q.	Let me show you what for record
23	purposes has been marked as State's Exhibit 141.  And if
24	you would, take a couple of moments and look over that
25	statement.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Okay.  Do you recognize that as the
	3	statement you gave to the police?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.  It's a vague description.
	5			Q.	Why don't you just keep it up there?
	6	I may be referring to it.  We have another copy down
	7	here.
	8				Mr. Routier, when you gave that
	9	statement to the police, would it be fair to say that the
10	purpose of giving that statement was to try to help the
11	police find the person who killed your two children; is
12	that right?
13			A.	Yes, sir.  That is why I did it.
14			Q.	All right.  Would it also be fair to
15	say that that statement was given only two days after
16	this attack occurred at your home; right?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	Okay.  And I assume, that when you
19	gave that statement, were you making your very best
20	effort to be as truthful and as honest, and as complete
21	as you could possibly be in that statement?
22			A.	Well, I tried.  Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Okay.  Looking at that statement --
24	yesterday, do you recall Mr. Mulder asking you about
25	discussions that you had with your wife that evening on
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	June 5th?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Do you remember yesterday that you
	4	told us that you talked with her about trips that y'all
	5	were planning?  A trip to Pennsylvania, a trip to Cancun
	6	that your wife was planning to take, and some plans that
	7	y'all had in the future; correct?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.  We talked about a lot of
	9	things in those hours.
10			Q.	Okay.  But yesterday, when you told us
11	about your discussion, you didn't tell us all of the
12	things that y'all discussed that night, did you?
13			A.	Well, it says here that I was talking
14	about -- about getting the boys into playing baseball.
15			Q.	Well, isn't it true that, it says
16	there in the statement, on June the 8th when you gave
17	this to the police, that what you said about that
18	discussion is:  "We talked about the business, bills, and
19	how Darlie was having a hard time with taking care of the
20	babies," and then you have in parenthesis, "all today".
21				That was also part of the discussion
22	that night, wasn't it?
23			A.	Yeah, it was some.
24			Q.	So that, that discussion wasn't all
25	positive, was it?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Actually, it was.
	2			Q.	Well, the problems that she was having
	3	taking care of the boys that day.  I mean, she was
	4	discussing that that she was having a problem.  It was
	5	something that was causing her to have a problem, wasn't
	6	it?
	7			A.	No, sir, that was taken out of
	8	context.
	9			Q.	Well, I'm just reading the sentence.
10	Have I misread that sentence?
11			A.	No, sir.
12			Q.	Okay.  You -- did you not use the
13	term, "Was having a hard time taking care of the babies
14	all today," those were your words, weren't they?
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	Okay.  Bills, I mean those are bills
17	that you have to pay, correct?
18			A.	Well, we were talking about the
19	business like we do every night.  Talking about the
20	bills, and how many people owed me money, what phone
21	calls I needed to make the next day, to make sure that
22	those bills, you know, got taken care of.
23			Q.	Having been self-employed myself, it's
24	important that you get paid, isn't it?
25			A.	Yes, you can't survive without it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	If you don't get paid, you have to
	2	close the door, don't you?
	3			A.	Well, I have been in business for
	4	seven years, and doing okay so far.  I have been able to
	5	salvage it after this.
	6			Q.	All right.  So, you talked about the
	7	trips, you talked about the business, the bills, about
	8	how she's having a hard time with the boys.
	9				As you look at that statement there,
10	yesterday you told us on direct examination, about where
11	Darlie was during the time that you were giving CPR to
12	Devon.
13				As you look through the statement that
14	you gave on June the 8th, can you point us to a -- well,
15	let me just ask you:  In that statement, did you tell the
16	police that Darlie was with you while you were giving CPR
17	to Devon?
18			A.	Yes, I did.  He said he was going to
19	take notes on what I couldn't remember.  I told him
20	that --
21			Q.	I'm sorry.  You may have you
22	misunderstood me.
24				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Excuse me, Judge,
25	we have been through this yesterday.  He gets a chance to
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	complete a sentence.
	2			THE COURT:  Just a minute, Mr. Mulder.
	3	We understand, Mr. Mulder.  Ask the question, again,
	4	please.
	5			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I was asking about
	6	the written statement.
	7			THE COURT:  Ask your question again,
	8	please.
	9			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'm asking about the
10	written statement.
11			THE COURT:  What was your answer going
12	to be?
13			THE WITNESS:  I don't know, I forgot
14	what the question was.
15			THE COURT:  Let's re-ask the question.
18		        Q.	I'm talking about the written
19	statement that you have before you.
20		        A.	Yes, sir.
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Your Honor,
23	excuse me.  That is a different question
24			THE COURT:  Well, the witness had
25	forgotten.  We're going to go ahead.  Ask the next
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	question, please.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Sir, would you look through the
	5	written statement in front of you, and tell me, whether
	6	or not you told the police in that written statement on
	7	June the 8th, that your wife was next to you as you
	8	performed CPR on Devon?
	9			A.	No, I don't see that in here.
10	Actually, there was a lot of details not in here.
11			Q.	That is one of the details that you
12	left out, wasn't it?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	Matter of fact, isn't it true that
15	when you're talking about doing CPR on Devon, you're
16	talking about blowing into the holes in his chest.  What
17	you actually said on June the 8th was, "I looked over at
18	Darlie and she was on the phone calling 911."  Isn't that
19	correct?
20			A.	Yes, sir, she was all over the place.
21			Q.	Of course, when you gave that
22	statement, Mr. Routier, back on June the 8th, we didn't
23	have the DNA results back on her T-shirt yet, did we?
24			A.	No, sir, and I was also in shock.
25			Q.	So when you gave the statement, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	didn't know that your older boy's blood cast off was on
	2	her T-shirt, did you?
	3			A.	I still didn't know that.
	4			Q.	And, when you spoke with Jamie
	5	Johnson, the CPS worker, you still didn't know that
	6	Devon's blood was on your wife's T-shirt, did you?
	7			A.	No, sir.
	8			Q.	Okay.  Do you remember what you told
	9	Jamie Johnson about her activities while you were
10	performing CPR on Devon?
11			A.	No, I don't.
12			Q.	Do you remember talking with her about
13	how you were trying to blow more air into Devon's mouth,
14	and do you remember telling her, that at this point, you
15	said:  "Darlie was calling 911 in the background?"
16				Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson
17	that?
18			A.	Yes, sir.  When I went over to him the
19	first time, that is the way it was.
20			Q.	You never did tell Jamie Johnson that
21	your wife was standing next to you, or by you at any time
22	while you were doing CPR on Devon, did you?
23			A.	I don't recall.
24			Q.	Now, again, I'm referring back to the
25	voluntary statement that you gave there, the six pages
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	before you.
	2				Mr. Routier, can you look through that
	3	statement, please, sir, and tell me whether or not in
	4	that six pages that you hand wrote, whether or not you
	5	told the police at any point in that statement that your
	6	wife gave you towels while you were doing CPR on Devon?
	7			A.	I remember we talked about that on
	8	February 12th.
	9			Q.	I'm sorry.  I'm looking here on this
10	statement that you gave to the police on June the 8th.
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	In that six page statement, sir, do
13	you say anything about Darlie Routier getting towels?
14			A.	No, sir, I skipped right over it.
15			Q.	So that is another detail that you did
16	not put in your statement; is that right?
17			A.	Yes, sir, but it didn't mean it didn't
18	happen.
19			Q.	 And, if you would, would you look
20	through that six page statement and tell me whether or
21	not you told the police in your handwriting there, that
22	the defendant placed a towel on Damon's back?
23			A.	No, sir, there's a lot of things
24	missing.
25			Q.	Well, on that point then is that also
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	a detail that you forgot the fact that your wife put a
	2	towel on Damon's back?  That's not in there, is it?
	3			A.	No, sir, it's not in this statement.
	4			Q.	Okay.  And at the time that you gave
	5	that statement, would it be fair to say that you didn't
	6	know that Damon's blood would be found on your wife's
	7	T-shirt either, did you?
	8			A.	No, sir, I didn't know that.
	9			Q.	And yesterday during your testimony
10	with one of us, either Mr. Mulder or myself, you
11	mentioned your wife going over to the sink in the
12	kitchen.  Do you recall that?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	Okay.  Would you look through those
15	six pages that are in your own handwriting, and tell me,
16	sir, whether or not on June the 8th, just two days after
17	this event, you told the police that your wife went over
18	to the sink that night?
19			A.	Chris Frosch was very specific to tell
20	me not to say anything about what she was doing, only
21	what I was doing.
22			Q.	Well, in the statement on page 3 don't
23	you say, "She told them that he went out in the garage"?
24			A.	On which page?
25			Q.	Page 3.  I mean, there are a lot of
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	references to what she did out there that night, weren't
	2	there?  Do you see "I told them that my babies were
	3	stabbed, and she told them that he went out in the
	4	garage."
	5			A.	"I looked over and Darlie was on the
	6	phone calling 911.  I ran over to Damon laying on the
	7	floor in the hallway between the wall, and the side of
	8	the couch near the bathroom.  He had no pulse, but I
	9	could not see any injuries."
10			Q.	Okay.  So, on that one page you have
11	the fact that she called 911, you have the fact that she
12	is relating to the police officers that the intruder went
13	out in the garage.  And on that one page alone, you have
14	got her doing two things, don't you?
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	Okay.  So my question again to you is:
17	Is there anything in that six page statement, sir, about
18	your wife going to the sink?
19			A.	No, sir, not in this statement.  I
20	believe there is another statement besides this one.
21			Q.	Who did you give that statement to?
22			A.	To the police.
23			Q.	A written statement?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	Okay.  And, what day did you give a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	written statement to the police?
	2			A.	I believe on the 10th.
	3			Q.	Well, on the 10th, are you referring
	4	to a diagram that you drew for the police on June the
	5	10th?
	6			A.	Chris Frosch, we went back and forth
	7	several times, he said he was taking notes on everything
	8	that I was telling him.  I kept telling him more
	9	information as I remembered.
10			Q.	Well, so that I am clear then, when
11	you talk about a statement on the 10th, you are simply
12	talking about notes that Detective Frosch may have taken
13	during the conversation that you had with him, correct?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	You are not talking about another
16	statement in your handwriting, such as the one that you
17	gave on June the 8th?  You're not talking about that, are
18	you?
19			A.	No, sir.  There was a supplement to
20	this report.
21			Q.	And, on the 10th, you did do a diagram
22	on the 10th though, didn't you?
23			A.	I believe so, yes, sir.
24			Q.	In which he asked you to show him how
25	your wife was positioned when you last saw her on the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	couch; correct?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Where Damon was when you last saw him;
	4	correct?
	5			A.	Correct.
	6			Q.	Where Devon was positioned on the
	7	floor when you last saw him; correct?
	8			A.	Yes.
	9			Q.	And, where Damon was when you came
10	downstairs and came in the Roman room, correct?
11			A.	Yes, sir.  And he tried to make sure
12	that everything that I did, and what she did was separate
13	from our statements, and that we didn't discuss anything
14	about what we were talking about.
15				He said that he only wanted to know
16	what I did, and what I saw, and what I glanced at.
17			Q.	Well, for instance on page 5 then, I
18	guess that Detective Frosch must have been very
19	disappointed, when you told him that she said, "Darin,
20	you have to promise me you will find this man.  He killed
21	our babies."
22				Again, you are not talking about what
23	you did, you are talking about what she is saying to you
24	and what she is doing; correct?  Was Detective Frosch
25	upset when you did that?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Probably.  We were an hour and a half
	2	late for the viewing of the boys.
	3			Q.	Of course, also in this -- of course,
	4	also on this page 2, you made a mistake again of telling
	5	Dectective Frosch what your wife was saying or doing.
	6	Also, do you see there where you related to him that she
	7	was yelling, "Devon, Devon, oh, my God, Devon"?
	8			A.	As I was running down the stairs, yes,
	9	sir.
10			Q.	Right.  Was Detective Frosch upset
11	when you did that?
12			A.	I don't really know.  We never talked
13	about the statement.
14			Q.	And yesterday, did I understand you to
15	say that she was giving you wet towels?  That she was
16	wetting the towels in the sink?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	What was the purpose of getting a wet
19	towel as opposed to just a towel that you could use to
20	try to absorb the blood or stop the bleeding?
21			A.	Well, I don't really know.  A person
22	with first aid knows that you usually use a dry towel,
23	but you have to have that experience in order to find out
24	that it's not good to wet any towels.  It's a natural
25	instinct.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	From your viewpoint though, that
	2	didn't really seem to be the right thing to do though,
	3	did it?  It's not what you would have preferred, right?
	4			A.	Well, I don't really know if it really
	5	mattered.
	6			Q.	A dry towel would have been better
	7	though?
	8			A.	Probably, if it could have helped.
	9			Q.	Now, I want to ask you:  How long did
10	you sit down and read -- and write this statement out?
11	Do you remember about what time?  I'm not talking about
12	exact minutes, but just give me a ballpark figure on the
13	amount of time that you spent writing this statement out.
14			A.	I don't know.  I mean, it looks real
15	good in the beginning, and then you can almost see my
16	anger as I am writing it.  It gets really sloppy and
17	sloppy.  And, just guessing, I don't know, maybe, a half
18	hour.  Frosch gave me a break in between, to let me relax
19	a little bit.  I remember being sick that whole day.
20			Q.	Okay.  Let me ask you about this dark
21	car that you saw.
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	That you are aware of.  You were aware
24	of that on June the 5th, right?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Had you all been receiving any
	2	threats, or any sort of threatening gestures toward any
	3	member of your family?
	4			A.	No, we had been getting a lot of phone
	5	calls, hang up phone calls, that we just thought maybe it
	6	was because of Devon getting out of school, he gave his
	7	phone number out to every kid in his class.
	8			Q.	So, you are getting the phone calls,
	9	you see this car.  Seeing this car on the 5th did not
10	concern you, did it?
11			A.	It didn't concern me, no.
12			Q.	Because, in fact, you had an alarm
13	system on your house, didn't you?
14			A.	Yes, sir, we did.
15			Q.	Okay.  But that evening it was not
16	turned on, was it?
17			A.	I never set my alarm in my house.
18			Q.	Okay.  And that is true on the 5th, it
19	wasn't turned on, was it?
20			A.	No, sir.
21			Q.	The defendant was aware that it was
22	off that night; correct?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Okay.
25			A.	We never set it.  If you're not safe
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	at home, where are you safe at?
	2			Q.	And that evening when you left the
	3	garage, in fact, you decided to leave the window up,
	4	correct?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	You would not have done those things,
	7	you wouldn't have left the window up and left the alarm
	8	off if you really thought there was a threat to somebody
	9	in your household, would you?
10			A.	No, sir.  I wouldn't do it purposely.
11			Q.	What is the first version of the
12	attack that the defendant gave to you?  What did she
13	first tell you happened out there on that evening?
14			A.	Just that she had felt Devon -- Damon
15	waking her up saying, "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy."  And then
16	she looks up over her and she sees a glimpse of this man
17	going towards -- I don't know how, probably, maybe at the
18	island, I don't know -- going from the kitchen, probably
19	two to three seconds of a glimpse of this man going into
20	the utility room and then gone.
21			Q.	I want to make sure that -- I want to
22	be clear about what you said.  You said that she said
23	that she felt Damon touch her?
24			A.	Touch her on the shoulder and he woke
25	her up.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  And he was saying something to
	2	her?
	3			A.	"Mommy, Mommy, Mommy."
	4			Q.	Okay.  And, she then woke up and saw a
	5	man walking away through the kitchen?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	And he then walked into the utility
	8	room?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Okay.  And, what did she say that she
11	did as this man got up and walked away from her into the
12	utility room?
13			A.	She said that he had already gone out
14	the utility room, and then she went around towards him,
15	and Damon was standing right beside her, and she asked
16	him to stay back, and she walked across the room, across
17	the kitchen, and when she looked down, there was a knife
18	in the -- right there in the doorway, and she said that
19	she reached down to pick it up and when she did, her neck
20	just spewed blood all over the floor.  That is when she
21	realized that she was cut.
22			Q.	Okay.
23			A.	And she walks back and turns on the
24	light, and then she sees Devon face up, and then she just
25	goes into hysterics.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.
	2			A.	Screaming, "Devon, Devon, Devon".
	3			Q.	Does that pretty much pick it up where
	4	you start your statement, where you hear her saying,
	5	"Devon, Devon, Devon," you come downstairs; right?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.  When did she first tell you
	8	that story?
	9			A.	Probably at the hospital, or later
10	that afternoon.  I couldn't be in the room with her for
11	longer than 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
12			Q.	All right.  So sometime of the
13	afternoon of June the 6th?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	And, I assume that you have talked
16	with her since then about what happened out there that
17	night, haven't you?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Okay.  And in your discussions with
20	her, has she ever told you a different version of what
21	happened?
22			A.	No, sir.
23			Q.	And, again, just an estimate, but
24	about how many times have you talked with her about what
25	happened that night?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	An estimate?
	2			Q.	Yes, sir.
	3			A.	A lot.
	4			Q.	And --
	5			A.	Two hundred, three hundred, five
	6	hundred, I have no idea.
	7			Q.	So I mean, it's --
	8			A.	Same thing over and over and over
	9	again.  It's like a broken record.
10			Q.	Mr. Routier, by the time that you
11	talked with Jamie Johnson, certainly your wife had
12	already told you this, right?
13			A.	Oh, yes, sir.
14			Q.	Probably had told you several times
15	about what had happened to her?
16			A.	I'm sure she had, yes, sir.
17			Q.	Okay.  Do you remember what you told
18	Jamie Johnson concerning the version that your wife had
19	given you of the attack?
20			A.	Do I remember?  No.
21			Q.	Okay.  Do you remember saying to her
22	that you told Jamie Johnson that Darlie told you that she
23	woke up because there was weight on her legs and the
24	intruder supposedly was sitting on her legs?  Do you
25	remember telling Jamie Johnson that that is the version
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	that your wife gave to you about this attack?
	2			A.	We didn't know if that was really true
	3	or not.  We didn't know if that was a dream.
	4			Q.	Well, Jamie Johnson, when you
	5	discussed this incident with her, this is the version
	6	that you gave to Jamie Johnson, wasn't it?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	So, when you talked with Jamie
	9	Johnson, you didn't give her the correct version of what
10	your wife had told you, did you?
11			A.	We didn't know -- I mean, I wasn't
12	there when it happened, so I don't know what exactly
13	happened.  I just know what she told me and what she told
14	me was that she woke up with Damon tugging on her.
15			Q.	You never told that to Jamie Johnson
16	though, did you?
17			A.	I don't recall.  About that Damon woke
18	her up?
19			Q.	Yes, sir.
20			A.	I would think I would, that has never
21	changed.
22			Q.	Well, but as you sit there on the
23	stand right now, you don't know whether you told her that
24	or not, do you?
25			A.	I don't know what I said to Jamie
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Johnson.
	2			Q.	Do you remember describing to Jamie
	3	Johnson how the attacker would have to cut Darlie's neck,
	4	and how he would have to get past her breasts in order to
	5	get at her neck?  Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson
	6	that?
	7			A.	No, sir.
	8			Q.	And do you remember telling Jamie
	9	Johnson that your wife would have been face-to-face with
10	this attacker?
11			A.	No, sir.
12			Q.	Mr. Routier, again going back to
13	Corrine Wells, again, do you recall Corrine Wells is the
14	individual, the lady that lives there at the house that
15	you used to live at on Bond Street?  Do you remember
16	that?
17			A.	Yes, sir, I didn't know her name.
18			Q.	Right.  Okay.  Do you remember when
19	you went over to talk with her on December the 3rd that,
20	in fact, you went into your wife's version of the attack
21	with Corrine Wells also, didn't you?
22			A.	Well, I had a good talk with her.
23			Q.	And it included what your wife had
24	told you about the attack, correct?
25			A.	I don't think she remembers any of the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	attack.
	2			Q.	Well, my question to you is:  Did you
	3	tell Corrine Wells what your wife had related to you
	4	about the attack?
	5			A.	No.
	6			Q.	So, you did not tell Corrine Wells
	7	that the man was on top of her, and was intending to rape
	8	her when she woke up?  You didn't tell Corrine Wells
	9	that?
10			A.	That would be my assumption.
11			Q.	From what your wife had told you?
12			A.	No.  My assumption of everything that
13	I know.  I know everything about this case.
14			Q.	Well, let me just ask you then:  Did
15	you tell Corrine Wells that the man was on top of your
16	wife and was intending to rape her?  Did you say that to
17	Corrine Wells?
18			A.	I said that could very well be.
19			Q.	So that is a yes?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Did you also tell Corrine Wells that
22	what they had read in the paper about the boys saving
23	Darlie's life by waking her up was not true, and in fact,
24	the boys didn't save her life?
25			A.	I did not say that.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Do you remember telling Corrine Wells
	2	that the boys couldn't save her life because their lungs
	3	had been collapsed by the stabbing?
	4			A.	No, sir, I did not say that.
	5			Q.	And do you remember telling Corrine
	6	Wells, in fact, that a 300 pound man did this to Darlie?
	7			A.	No, sir.
	8			Q.	So those statements about the boys not
	9	saving her life, and about a 300 pound man attacking
10	Darlie, those statements aren't true, are they?
11			A.	We know that Damon saved Darlie's
12	life.
13			Q.	Okay.  Well, that is not what you told
14	Corrine Wells though, is it?
15			A.	I don't remember what I said to her.
16			Q.	Well, that was a pretty long
17	conversation that you had with her too, wasn't it?
18			A.	Yes, we had a good talk.
19			Q.	About an hour and a half to two hours
20	over there at her house, correct?
21			A.	She was showing me what they had done
22	to the house since I had left there and how much they
23	were enjoying it, and also it brought back memories of
24	when the kids were babies.
25			Q.	Right.  Do you remember telling
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Corrine Wells about your wife's necklace?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  About how that necklace is
	4	actually the thing that saved her life?
	5			A.	I know that the necklace was embedded
	6	into her neck.
	7			Q.	How do you know it was embedded into
	8	her neck?
	9			A.	Because I saw it.
10			Q.	Where did you see it?
11			A.	When she came to the front door and
12	paramedics were bringing her out.
13			Q.	Okay.
14			A.	She took her hand like this and she
15	goes, "Darin, I'm cut."  She pulled that thing down, and
16	I mean a gap in her neck was that wide, muscles, tendons,
17	veins, everything.
18			Q.	That necklace was cut?
19			A.	The necklace was inside of there.  I
20	don't know if it was cut.
21			Q.	Okay.  In fact, that necklace wasn't
22	cut at all, was it?
23			A.	No, sir.
24			Q.	She was wearing that necklace that
25	night, a man cut her neck, and yet, there wasn't a single
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	thing done with that necklace, was there?
	2			A.	It was a rope chain.
	3			Q.	That's right.
	4			A.	It's my understanding that there is a
	5	nick in it.
	6			Q.	There is a nick in it?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	Do you think you would recognize that
	9	necklace if you saw it?
10			A.	Yes, sir, I would like to see it.
11			Q.	Okay.
13				THE COURT:  This is 142?
14				MR. GREG DAVIS:  No, sir.  This will
15	be State's Exhibit 26.
16				THE COURT:  26?
17				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
18				THE COURT:  All right.
21			Q.	 Mr. Routier, I'm handing you State's
22	Exhibit 26, and if you will look at that, please, sir,
23	and tell me whether or not you recognize that to be your
24	wife's necklace?
25			A.	Yes, sir, it is.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.
	3				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Your Honor, at this
	4	time we'll offer State's Exhibit No. 26.
	5				THE COURT:  Any objection?
	6				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  We have no
	7	objection.
	8				THE COURT:  State's Exhibit 26 is
	9	admitted.
11				(Whereupon, the item
12					Heretofore mentioned
13					Was received in evidence
14					As State's Exhibit No. 26
15					For all purposes,
16					After which time, the
17					Proceedings were resumed
18					As follows:)
21			Q.	Mr. Routier, looking at the necklace,
22	the clasps are still intact, are they not?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Okay.  No visible defects to this
25	necklace, are there?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Let me see it again.
	2			Q.	Okay.  Just take your time.
	3			A.	Right there.
	4			Q.	Okay.  You've indicated a spot right
	5	there; is that right?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Now, again, your wife was still
	8	wearing the necklace when you saw her, correct?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	It was still around her neck, right?
11			A.	Yes, sir.  It was embedded into her
12	neck.
13			Q.	The pendant that we see here, the
14	diamond pendant, that was still attached when you saw it,
15	correct?
16			A.	Yes, I would assume so.
17			Q.	Just like it is today in Court?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Okay.  The cat that y'all had, the big
20	cat, what was the cat's name?
21			A.	Bear.
22			Q.	Okay.  And that evening that cat was
23	in the cage in the family room?
24			A.	Yes, sir, he was.
25			Q.	Okay.  And I don't recall what you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	said about the cat's disposition.  It was not good
	2	though, was it?  It's a pretty feisty cat, wasn't it?
	3			A.	Yeah, he is.
	4			Q.	When strangers came around that cat,
	5	did he take to strangers well?
	6			A.	Well, he was caged so he couldn't get
	7	at you, but he just -- well, if you aggravated him, he
	8	would kind of get at you, but --
	9			Q.	How big was that cat?
10			A.	Oh, probably, just guessing, probably
11	15 or 16 pounds, and he was only a year old.
12			Q.	And that cat cage was sitting right
13	next to the couch where your wife was supposedly sleeping
14	that night, correct?
15			A.	Right in the corner, yes.
16			Q.	Pretty close to where Damon and Devon
17	were both sleeping too, right?
18			A.	Yes, within 10, 12 feet.
19			Q.	And you would expect that if a
20	stranger came into that room and came over there by that
21	cage, that that cat is going to raise a ruckus, isn't he?
22			A.	Personally, I wish that cat could
23	talk.  That cat got to see a lot.
24			Q.	Right.
25			A.	We wouldn't be here right now.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Well, I think we would, but --
	2			A.	That cat didn't make -- it would
	3	probably hiss, but not make a sound like a dog would.
	4			Q.	Okay.  A sound like a dog would.  Your
	5	Pomeranian would make a sound, wouldn't it?
	6			A.	Yeah, he would.  He is a yapping
	7	little thing.
	8			Q.	Now, when strangers came into your
	9	house, I mean, that is one time when he would be yapping,
10	wouldn't he?
11			A.	Well, that dog was so little he
12	couldn't go down the stairs, so he slept upstairs by the
13	fireplace right beside our bed in this great big huge
14	pillow, about this big, and real, real deep, he would
15	kind of buried himself down in that pillow and go to
16	sleep.
17			Q.	So that evening the yapping little dog
18	and the hissing cat were both inside your house; is that
19	right?
20			A.	Yes, sir.  The dog was upstairs.
21			Q.	The coffee table that was in the
22	middle of your room there?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	The coffee table that you said the
25	paramedic put back on the pedestal?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Was the paramedic the one who was nice
	3	enough to put the flowers back on the table too, or did
	4	somebody else do that?
	5			A.	I don't know.  All I know is that it
	6	was all slid down sideways.
	7			Q.	So you saw the paramedic put the table
	8	back up, but you are not quite sure who put the flower
	9	arrangement back in the center of the table?
10			A.	I don't think the flower arrangement
11	really fell off the glass, I think it just slid down the
12	glass, and all he did was lift it up.  He just lifted the
13	whole thing up at one time.
14			Q.	So, when he lifted it back up, the
15	flower arrangement didn't slide down that glass table on
16	to the floor?
17			A.	Well, it was all the way to the floor.
18			Q.	Yeah.
19			A.	And then when he picked it up, they
20	all kind of went up together.
21			Q.	What kind of towel did Darlie have
22	around her neck when the police got there?
23			A.	Seemed like a washrag or something
24	smaller than a dish towel.
25			Q.	Are you even sure that she had a towel
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	up around her neck?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.  Or the paramedics could
	3	have put it on there before.
	4			Q.	Do you remember back in September, on
	5	September the 12th I asked you about the towels?  Do you
	6	recall that?
	7			A.	Yes, sir, I do.
	8			Q.	Do you remember I asked you about the
	9	towel around Darlie's neck?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	Do you recall that I said, "Well, did
12	you see Darlie with any towel around her neck at any
13	time?"
14				Let me just show you on page 158, it
15	will be the last line on this -- let's turn this around.
16	Do you see that I'm asking:  "Well, did you see Darlie
17	with any towel around her neck at any time?"
18				Do you see that question?
19			A.	At anytime, yes, sir.
20			Q.	Okay.  At anytime --
22				THE COURT REPORTER:  Excuse me, what
23	was your answer?
25			A.	My answer was no then.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Back on September the 12th, now --
	3				THE COURT:  Well, I think we want to
	4	get the answer that --
	5				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I think that he
	6	actually said, "At anytime."
	7				THE WITNESS:  At anytime.
10			Q.	Back on September the 12th of 1996,
11	your answer was, no.  And yet today, some, what, four to
12	five months later, your memory is such that you can tell
13	us that it was some sort of wash cloth; is that right?
14			A.	Yes, sir.  But the question you were
15	asking me about that before, you just asked me to
16	describe it, and I said it was a green and white towel.
17			Q.	No, sir, I asked you -- no, sir, that
18	was the towel about -- that you placed on Damon.  I was
19	asking about the green and white checkered.  Do you
20	remember that?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	Okay.  This question here, "Did you
23	see Darlie with any towel around her neck?"  That was
24	concerning Darlie alone.
25			A.	Yes, sir, in the house, I didn't see a
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	towel on Darlie's neck.
	2			Q.	Well, remember the question was at any
	3	time?  Right?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.  I must have misunderstood.
	5			Q.	Okay.  Let me ask you:  The jewelry
	6	that was laying up there on the kitchen counter?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	Okay.  And you are familiar with that
	9	jewelry, correct?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	I think that we've looked at a picture
12	of that previously, and I'm talking about the rings, the
13	bracelets that were on the kitchen bar between the family
14	room and the kitchen.  Okay?
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	Okay.  Most of that jewelry, would it
17	be fair to say, was bought at pawn shops?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Would it also be fair to say that you
20	and the defendant made several trips over to pawn shops
21	to purchase the jewelry?
22			A.	Yes, sir, we had a friend that would
23	call us whenever something really of a good value, he
24	would call us and let us know what was there, and we
25	would go over and take a look at it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	All right.  Would there be occasions
	2	when the defendant would go over to the pawn shop with
	3	the children?
	4			A.	Occasionally.  They liked going in
	5	there.
	6			Q.	And, how would you describe the
	7	defendant's demeanor or her behavior when she went to
	8	that pawn shop?
	9			A.	Sometimes it was just like shopping
10	for something for our anniversary or a birthday or
11	Christmas.  I wouldn't say her demeanor was in any
12	strange way.
13			Q.	Nothing out of the ordinary?
14			A.	Nothing.
15			Q.	Acted inside the pawn shop pretty much
16	like she acted outside of the pawn shop, right?
17			A.	Pretty much, yeah.
18			Q.	Do you remember the names of the women
19	inside the pawn shop that dealt with y'all?
20			A.	No, sir.
21			Q.	Do you remember on occasion that there
22	were women working in there, that would wait on you or
23	the defendant?
24			A.	Most of the time we dealt with this
25	man named Dan.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	I'm sorry?
	2			A.	We mainly dealt with a man named Dan,
	3	who was one of the managers.
	4			Q.	Mr. Routier, yesterday Mr. Mulder
	5	asked you some questions about Gangster's Paradise.  Do
	6	you recall those questions?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	And did I understand you to say
	9	yesterday, that you thought there was absolutely nothing
10	wrong with playing that song at a funeral?
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	Did I also understand you to say that
13	you didn't think there was anything wrong with your five
14	and six year old children adopting that song as their
15	favorite song?
16			A.	No, sir.  I never understood what the
17	words were, but they didn't know how to sing the words so
18	they just liked the way that the song was made, the way
19	it was put together.
20			Q.	All right.  And, when it came on, I
21	think you said they said, "Daddy, crank it up."  Right?
22			A.	Yes, sir, they loved that song.
23			Q.	Okay.  Have you ever looked at the
24	lyrics to that song?
25			A.	No, sir, I haven't.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Do you know what that song is about?
	2			A.	Street crime.
	3			Q.	Violent street crime.  That's right.
	4	Do you know how it begins?
	5			A.	No, sir.
	6			Q.	"As I walk through the valley of the
	7	shadow of death, I take a look at my life and realize
	8	there is nothing left."
	9				That is the first two lines of your
10	children's favorite song.  Did you know that?
11			A.	No, I didn't know that.
12			Q.	Do you know, that in that song by
13	Coolio, he says, "You better watch how you're talking and
14	where you are walking, or you and your homies might be
15	lying in chalk."  Do you know that?
16			A.	I do remember that lyric, yes, sir.
17			Q.	Yeah.  Do you remember the next two
18	lines are:  "I really hate to trip, but I gotta lope, as
19	they croaked, I see myself in the pistol smoke fool."  Do
20	you know that?
21			A.	I didn't know that.  Kids sometimes
22	adopt songs that we as adults don't always understand.
23			Q.	You know that it goes on in this
24	favorite song to say, "I'm an educated fool with money on
25	my mind.  I got my tin in my hand and a gleam in my eye.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	I'm a loped out gangsta, set tripping banker, and my
	2	homies is down, so don't arouse my anger, fool."
	3				Did you know that was part of that
	4	song, too?
	5			A.	No, sir.
	6			Q.	Did you know that he continues: "They
	7	ain't nothing but a heartbeat away.  I'm living my life,
	8	do or die, what can I say.  I'm 23 now, but will I live
	9	to see 24?  The way things is going, I don't know."
10				Did you know that?
11			A.	I know what he is saying.
12			Q.	Yeah.  Because of street violence and
13	violent crime, he may not live another year, right?
14			A.	Yes, sir, I think we're all that way.
15			Q.	Then he goes on and he says:  "Tell
16	me, why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are
17	you and me."  Do you recognize that?
18			A.	Yes, sir.  Street crime people killing
19	each other.
20			Q.	People that they love sometimes?
21			A.	Not necessarily.
22			Q.	You know in the last verse, do you
23	know that he goes on to say, "Power and the money.  Money
24	and the power.  Minute after minute, hour after hour.
25	Everybody is running, but half of them ain't looking at
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	what's going on in the kitchen.  But I don't know what is
	2	cooking.  They say I got to learn, but nobody is here to
	3	teach me.  If they can't understand it, how can they
	4	reach me.  I guess they can't, I guess they won't, I
	5	guess they front.  That is why I know my life is out of
	6	luck, fool."
	7			A.	Mr. Davis, I didn't write that song.
	8			Q.	No, I know.  Coolio did.
	9			A.	Coolio did.
10			Q.	This is the song that you and your
11	children listened to.
12			A.	They listened not to the words but to
13	the music.
14			Q.	And these are the lyrics that were
15	played at your children's funeral too, weren't they?
16			A.	Yes, sir, they were.  If they had
17	loved Barney, we would have played Barney.
18			Q.	One last subject I want to discuss
19	with you here.  That is the fact that you and your wife
20	both have a financial interest in this case, don't you?
21			A.	What do you mean?
22			Q.	Book deals?
23			A.	We haven't made any deals at all.
24			Q.	Do you remember back on December 3rd
25	of '96 that you discussed those book deals with Corrine
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Wells?
	2			A.	I said that is how we're going to pay
	3	for these attorneys, but we're just hopeful thinking.
	4			Q.	Well, you didn't mention attorneys
	5	back then.  Didn't you say that you had been approached
	6	by 17 to 19 book companies?
	7			A.	No, sir, that is not true.
	8			Q.	And do you remember that when you said
	9	that to Corrine Wells that you said that you weren't
10	going to settle for the small dollars like 30 or 40
11	thousand dollars?  Do you remember that?
12			A.	No, sir, I did not say that.
13			Q.	Do you remember telling Corrine Wells
14	that, in fact, the defendant was going to write the book
15	herself?
16			A.	I don't remember saying that either.
17			Q.	And do you remember the reason why she
18	was going to write the book herself, because she was
19	going to cut out the middle man, and that you and she
20	were going to go for the big figures?
21			A.	No, sir, I did not say that.
22			Q.	That is what you told her back in
23	December, wasn't it?
24			A.	No, sir, I did not.  There's six
25	people in here writing books right now.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	I'm just talking about the one --
	2	about the one the defendant is going to write?
	3			A.	I don't know if that is true.
	4			Q.	You don't know whether she is going to
	5	write a book or not?
	6			A.	I don't know if she is or not.
	7			Q.	Going to go for the big figures,
	8	correct?
	9			A.	No, sir.
11				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Pass the witness.
12				THE COURT:  Ladies and gentlemen, I
13	think now we will take our morning break.  Let's be back
14	at 25 after, please.
15				THE COURT:  All right.
17				(Whereupon, a short
18					Recess was taken,
19					After which time,
20					The proceedings were
21					Resumed on the record,
22					In the presence and
23					Hearing of the defendant
24					And the jury, as follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  All right.  Let the record
	2	reflect that all parties in the trial are present in
	3	these proceedings.  Mr. Mosty?
	4			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Your Honor --
	5			THE COURT:  These proceedings are
	6	being held -- excuse me -- all parties at trial are
	7	present, and these proceedings are being held outside the
	8	presence of the jury.
	9			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I just had one
10	more thought about why that illegal bug is relevant.
11			THE COURT:  All right.
12			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  And it relates
13	to, for instance, all of the reports, but I can't
14	remember, this is Mr. Patterson's entire file, this red
15	folder.  And I think it was marked for record purposes.
16			THE COURT:  It was.
17			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  I don't see a
18	sticker, but it -- well, yes, it was marked for record
19	purposes, as Defendant's Exhibit 72.  And what is
20	notoriously missing from this report, and all of the
21	reports, is any report of this illegal bug.
22			For instance, you will recall they
23	brought in the Garland K-9 unit, I think it was Garland,
24	it was some other city anyway.
25			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  It was.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  It was Garland.
	2	And, there is a Garland K-9 report.  And in all of these
	3	records, there is not one reference in Garland, or
	4	Rowlett, or anywhere else, to this illegal bug.
	5			And so, that raises the question of,
	6	what else did they leave out, as we have gone through all
	7	this stuff about never taking any notes.
	8			Another reason that all of this is
	9	relevant is, that it goes to what they chose to write
10	down and what they chose not to write down and what they
11	chose to leave out.  And this goes directly to that as a
12	relevance to impeach these officers, and how they went
13	about this investigation.
14			THE COURT:  Thank you.  That is now in
15	the record.  Let's bring the jury in, please.
16			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Do I surmise
17	that that would be overruled?
18			THE COURT:  Yes, that is overruled.
19			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, we don't
20	find it curious that they have --
21			THE COURT:  Gentlemen, we have
22	concluded that hearing.  That hearing is over.
23			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, we just
24	thought of some new things we thought you might want to
25	entertain.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  We've still got
	2	to keep pointing those things out, and we might think of
	3	others.
	4			THE COURT:  I'm sure you will.
	5			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Can we not
	6	confer?
	7			THE COURT:  You may confer with each
	8	other, yes.
	9			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Thank you, Judge.
10	Thank you, Judge.
11			THE COURT:  Now, in the meantime, we
12	will bring the jury back in.
14				  (Whereupon, the jury
15					was returned to the
16					courtroom, and the
17					proceedings were
18					resumed on the record,
19					in open court, in the
20					presence and hearing
21					of the defendant,
22					as follows:)
24			THE COURT:  Let the record reflect
25	that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	seated.
	2				Mr. Mulder?  Anybody have anything
	3	else?  Thank you.
	4				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Just a thing or two, Darin.  You've
11	never doubted your wife's innocence, have you?
12			A.	No, sir.
13			Q.	You were asked about the towels.  And
14	about how many towels were in that room in the den and in
15	the hall and in the area where the action was?
16			A.	Probably five or six.
17			Q.	Do you know how many?
18			A.	Not exactly, no.
19			Q.	Did you get any towels?
20			A.	No, sir, I didn't.
21			Q.	Did Waddell or Walling or any of the
22	police officers get any towels?
23			A.	No, sir, they didn't.
24			Q.	Did the paramedics get any towels to
25	your knowledge?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	No, sir.
	2			Q.	The towels that were there, came out
	3	of your towel drawer, didn't they?
	4			A.	Yes, sir, they did.
	5			Q.	All right.  Who was left to get the
	6	towels?
	7			A.	Darlie.
	8			Q.	Was she just getting the towels in the
	9	sink and throwing them at you, or was she bringing them
10	to you?
11			A.	She was bringing them to me.
12			Q.	That makes sense, doesn't it?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	Is there any other way that that would
15	be done?
16			A.	No, sir.
17			Q.	Was she there, and did she wipe
18	Devon's chest as you blew into his mouth?
19			A.	Yes, sir, she was there.
20			Q.	Got the blood off of him?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	Did you think that was something that
23	a mother would do to comfort her son under those
24	circumstances?  Does that seem unreasonable to you that
25	she would do that?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	No, it's not unreasonable at all.
	2			Q.	Now, when these statements were given
	3	by you and by Darlie, did you, at the time request the
	4	officers to video record, or tape record your part?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.  I told him that I could not
	6	write down as fast as I can think, and that he was
	7	going -- he said he would just put -- he would just go in
	8	with some notes and some other things that he wanted to
	9	fill in.
10			Q.	All right.  So they didn't question
11	you while you were giving your statement as to what they
12	thought might be important?  You were just to write down
13	what you thought was important; is that right?
15				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'm sorry.  I'm going
16	to object to that as being leading.
17				THE COURT:  Overruled.  I'll let him
18	answer it if he knows the answer.  Go ahead.
19				THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  They just
20	asked me -- they just basically told me to write what I
21	could remember, and I did in a very quick manner.
24			Q.	Has your memory improved since the
25	event?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir, very much so.
	2			Q.	Over the recess, I was reading through
	3	your statement.  Did you put in your statement,
	4	initially, is there something in there that after the
	5	police got there, you went upstairs and put your pants
	6	on?
	7			A.	No, sir, I had my pants on.
	8			Q.	But didn't you put in your
	9	statement --
10			A.	I put in my statement that I couldn't
11	remember putting my pants on before I went downstairs.  I
12	knew I had my glasses on, because I can't see two feet in
13	front of me.
14			Q.	Well, I mean, when you gave the
15	statement, you put in there that it wasn't until the
16	police got there, that you went upstairs and put your
17	pants on?
18			A.	I knew that couldn't be true.
19			Q.	But that is in your statement, isn't
20	it?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	That means you were down there nude?
23			A.	No, sir, I wasn't down there nude.  I
24	think I would have been embarrassed if the police
25	officers would have started coming in, and I would have
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	been standing there stark naked.
	2			Q.	Has your memory gotten progressively
	3	better with time?
	4			A.	Yes, sir, it has.
	5			Q.	Did you remember more of what happened
	6	on the 8th than you did the 6th, and more on the 10th
	7	than you did the 8th, and more on the 20th than you did
	8	on the 10th?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	And more as we go down the line?
11			A.	A lot more now.
12			Q.	Okay.  Do you find that unusual?
13			A.	No, sir.
14			Q.	Given the circumstances?
15			A.	No, sir.  I have had a lot of time to
16	think about all this.
17			Q.	In your effort to reconstruct things
18	with Darlie, did y'all go to a psychic?
19			A.	Yes, sir, we did.
20			Q.	Did a psychic tell you and her what
21	the psychic thought happened?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Okay.
24			A.	We were looking for answers that the
25	police couldn't tell us.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Just looking for help anywhere you
	2	could get it?
	3			A.	Yes, sir.
	4			Q.	And did the psychic have a theory
	5	about what this man did?
	7				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'm going to object
	8	to that as being hearsay from a psychic.
	9				THE COURT:  Sustained.
10				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I'm not going to
11	go into what --
14			Q.	Did the psychic have a version, a sort
15	of a phrenology, where you feel the bumps on your head,
16	reconstruction of the scene?
18				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'm going to object
19	to that, again, whether she has got an opinion or not.
20	It's still hearsay.
21				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, if the FBI
22	agent can testify, then we can hear what the psychic has
23	to say.
24				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Well, if the psychic
25	wants to come in here and testify, let her.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				THE COURT:  Gentlemen, the objection
	2	is sustained.  Rephrase your question.
	5			Q.	Did y'all talk to a psychic?
	6			A.	Yes, sir, we did.
	7			Q.	Did Darlie relate to you that she had
	8	had dreams and nightmares concerning this attack?
	9			A.	Yes, sir, we've both had a lot of
10	nightmares.
11			Q.	And are the dreams and nightmares
12	different versions of what her version was to you about
13	Damon coming in and tapping her on the shoulder?
14			A.	Are they different?
15			Q.	Well, yes.
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	Okay.  Mr. Davis has had a number of
18	questions about your finances and your business.  Will
19	you tell the jury what your expenses were?  I think we
20	know your rent was $525 dollars per month.
21			A.	Yes, sir.  I had just paid all my
22	equipment off.  We had taken a loan out for about
23	seventy-five thousand dollars on equipment, and it was
24	all paid by January.
25				So, all of a sudden we had almost
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	three thousand dollars a month extra per month, that we
	2	weren't used to having, because we had made -- it's like
	3	paying off a house in three years.
	4			Q.	I understand that, but I want to get
	5	to the point here.
	6			A.	Individually, what my bills were?
	7			Q.	Tell us what your fixed expenses were
	8	each month.
	9			A.	About five thousand dollars a month.
10			Q.	All right.  That includes what?
11			A.	Electricity, phone bills, I have three
12	phones, rent, labor is usually the highest, you know, the
13	highest amount that you have to pay.
14			Q.	Did that include Basia?
15			A.	Yes, sir, it did.
16			Q.	During your personal knowledge of her,
17	has she had mental difficulties?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
20				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'll object to that,
21	your Honor.  That is an area that we have already
22	discussed.
23				THE COURT:  Sustained.  Let's move on.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2		        Q.	Are you personally aware --
	4			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Again, I'm going to
	5	object to that, if it deals with the same area.  I assume
	6	it will.
	7			THE COURT:  Well, let him ask the
	8	question first.
	9			MR. GREG DAVIS:  May we approach the
10	bench for a moment?
11			THE COURT:  Yeah, I can see both sides
12	up here.
14			         (Whereupon, a short
15				discussion was held
16				at the side of the
17				bench, between the Court,
18				and the attorneys for
19				both sides in the case,
20				off the record, and outside
21				of the hearing of the
22				Jury, after which time,
23				the proceedings were
24				resumed on the record,
25				outside the hearing of
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				         the jury as follows:)
	3			THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder, I have already
	4	ruled on that.  You are instructed not to ask any
	5	questions in that area.  I have already ruled on that.
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Can I get it on
	7	the record?
	8			THE COURT:  I will put it in the
	9	record once we get through.  All right.
10			Let's move on to the next question,
11	please.
13			(Whereupon, the following
14				mentioned item was
15				marked for
16				identification only
17				as Defendant's Exhibit 81,
18				after which time the
19				proceedings were
20				resumed on the record
21				in open court, as
22				follows:)
25		        Q.	Let me hand you what has been marked
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	for identification and record purposes as Defendant's
	2	Exhibit No. 81.  I will ask you if you recognize that and
	3	can identify it?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	And, is that true and accurate?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Bank statement?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	Concerning your business?
10			A.	Balance, yes, sir.
12				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  We'll offer into
13	evidence what's been marked and identified as Defendant's
14	Exhibit No. 81.
15				MR. GREG DAVIS:  No objection.
16				THE COURT:  Okay.  Defendant's Exhibit
17	81 is admitted.
19				(Whereupon, the above
20					mentioned item was
21					received in evidence as
22					Defendant's Exhibit No. 81,
23					for all purposes
24					after which time,
25					the proceedings were
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				 resumed on the record,
	2				 as follows:)
	5			Q.	This shows your bank statement through
	6	June of 1996 through June 30th; is that right?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	And it shows a bank balance, of June
	9	30th, of how much?
10			A.	Seven thousand, nine hundred forty-one
11	dollars and ten cents.
12			Q.	Okay.  Now, I believe you have already
13	testified that you had some 18 or 20 thousand in accounts
14	receivable at that time?
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	That were good accounts receivable?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	And that have since been collected?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	You were asked about an American
21	Express bill?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Remember I wanted you to explain that,
24	and he went on to something else?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Did you pay that bill?
	2			A.	Yes, sir, I did.
	3			Q.	Was your house payment current?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	In June?
	6			A.	Yes, sir, it was.  I made the bank
	7	payment -- the June payment wasn't late until the 15th.
	8	I just hadn't written out the bills yet.
	9			Q.	Maybe we're beating this thing to
10	death, but with that Gangster Paradise, and I frankly
11	hadn't heard it until the other day, and I cannot recite
12	any of the lyrics.
14				MR. GREG DAVIS:  I'm going to object
15	to that as really side-bar.
16				THE COURT:  Well, I think I will
17	let --
18				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Let's do a question,
19	not leading.
20				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, if it gets
21	much more complicated than George Strait or Willie
22	Nelson, I don't listen to the words.
23				THE COURT:  Oh, I understand, Mr.
24	Mulder, I understand.  Well, let's ask the question.
25	Yes.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			Q.	Do you listen to the words of those
	3	things?
	4			A.	No, sir, I don't.
	5			Q.	Do you think your children understand
	6	what the words are, or if they hear the words, understand
	7	the meaning?
	8			A.	No, sir, I think they just understand
	9	the beat.
10			Q.	They like the beat and the rhythm and
11	that sort of thing, right?
12			A.	Right.  They jump around all over the
13	floor and dance.
14			Q.	When you and Darlie -- they gave you
15	your warnings when you -- on that affidavit sheet, it's
16	got your warnings there, "That you have a right to remain
17	silent.  That you have a right to a lawyer.  If you can't
18	afford a lawyer, a lawyer will be appointed for you to
19	counsel with you, prior to or during any questioning by
20	the police; and you have a right to terminate the
21	interview at any time."  That is basically your Miranda
22	warnings.  You are familiar with those now?
23			A.	Yes, sir, I am.
24			Q.	You had never had those warnings given
25	to you before, had you?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	No, sir,
	2			Q.	In fact, other than an estate planning
	3	lawyer, you have never even talked to a lawyer?
	4			A.	Yes, sir, and we never even talked to
	5	him.
	6			Q.	Now, when Mr. Patterson and Mr. Frosch
	7	asked you to give statements, did you hide behind your
	8	Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and not say
	9	anything at all, or did you tell them --
10			A.	I told them everything.  I didn't have
11	anything to hide.
12			Q.	You answered all of their questions?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	You gave them keys to your house, and
15	your boat, and storage and the company, didn't you?
16			A.	Yes, sir, I gave them keys to
17	everything I had.
18			Q.	There has been some talk about
19	insurance.  Did you have several hundred thousand dollars
20	worth of insurance on your life?
21			A.	I have eight hundred thousand dollars
22	worth of life insurance on me.
23			Q.	All right.  How much did you have on
24	Darlie?
25			A.	I think -- I believe two hundred
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	thousand.
	2			Q.	All right.  And the children, it was
	3	just a family policy, where there was 5,000 on each of
	4	the children?
	5			A.	Yes, sir, and they just add them on as
	6	you have them.
	7			Q.	You were asked about a sock and you
	8	said you had never seen that sock.
	9				Is this one of y'all's towels?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	Do you recognize these as towels?
12			A.	Yes, sir, kitchen towels.
13			Q.	Let me just ask you --
15				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Of course, it
16	would be on the very bottom.
17				THE COURT:  Always the way.
18				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Why is it always
19	the last place you look?
20				THE COURT:  Just fate.
23			Q.	What did you do with old socks?
24			A.	We just -- we had a rag pile.
25			Q.	Okay.  This sock was described as
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	having some holes in it, other than the obvious holes
	2	that you see.
	3			A.	That is a pretty holey (sic) sock.
	4			Q.	Well, some places there are marks on
	5	it, and other places, there are holes and no marks,
	6	indicating that it was worn?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	I suspect.  Did you wear socks with
	9	multiple holes in them?
10			A.	No, sir.
11			Q.	Is this the type of sock that you
12	wore?
13			A.	Tube sock, yes, sir.
14			Q.	Okay.  Do you have any reason to
15	believe that this is not one of your old socks?
16			A.	Just by -- what if you flipped it
17	around, see where the heel is, just by guessing at it, I
18	would say that it was my sock.
19			Q.	That it is your sock?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  Where would you put a sock that
22	had holes in it and was --
23			A.	We had a basket on top of the washer
24	and dryer and we would just use them for rags, just for
25	waxing the cars, you know.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Cleaning up around the house?
	2			A.	Cleaning up around the house.
	3			Q.	Plenty to do with three boys, I guess?
	4			A.	Oh, yeah.
	5			Q.	I mean, the more you clean, the more
	6	there is to clean?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	It's like shoveling sand against the
	9	tide, isn't it?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
12				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Again, if we could
13	stop with the leading, please.
14				THE COURT:  Sustained.  Let's stop the
15	side-bar and the leading.  Let's phrase our questions,
16	both sides please.  You are both experienced attorneys.
17	Let's everyone phrase the questions properly.
18				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, excuse me.
19	I'm just trying to move along on some of the things that
20	are obvious.
21				THE COURT:  And we appreciate that,
22	Mr. Mulder.
23				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Thank you.
24				THE COURT:  All right.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			Q.	Let me ask you this, and I made a note
	3	of it.  Did Darlie, when you went to see her in the
	4	hospital, did she at any time complain about or remark
	5	about an injury to her mouth?
	6			A.	Yes, sir, she did.
	7			Q.	What was that?
	8			A.	When I first got in there, the -- some
	9	other family members were giving her ice chips, and
10	feeding her ice chips because her lips were just all
11	swollen, like this, you could see the cuts on the inside
12	of her mouth.
14				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Okay.  I believe
15	that's all.
16				THE COURT:  Mr. Davis?
17				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Mr. Routier, it's really more accurate
24	to say that your memory got better every time we got a
25	test result back in this case, didn't it?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	No, sir.
	2			Q.	Every time we found out something
	3	else, you remembered something else that would correspond
	4	with that finding, didn't you?
	5			A.	No, sir.  What I remember is exactly
	6	what is the truth.
	7			Q.	So that when Mr. Mulder said, that
	8	your memory was better on September the 12th than it had
	9	been on June 8th, and now it's better than it was in
10	September.  Of course, we have had all of these test
11	results come back, and you are privy to all them now,
12	aren't you?
13			A.	Not necessarily.
14			Q.	You pretty much know everything that
15	has happened in this case, haven't you?
16			A.	Yes, sir, but the truth doesn't have
17	anything to do with the test results.
18			Q.	Let me show you again, State's Exhibit
19	83-B.  This is the letter I showed you yesterday.  Do you
20	remember me showing you this letter, sir?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	And let me ask you:  Is your memory
23	better about that today?  Do you remember that is one of
24	the letters addressed to you now?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        Q.	Okay.
	3			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Your Honor, at this
	4	time we will offer State's Exhibit 83-B.
	5			THE COURT:  Any objection?
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I thought that
	7	came in yesterday.
	8			MR. GREG DAVIS:  No, sir, just 83-A.
	9	He said he didn't remember that one yesterday.
10			THE COURT:  Any objection?
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, just a
12	moment.  No, we don't have any objection.
13			THE COURT:  State's Exhibit 83-B is
14	admitted.
16			(Whereupon, the above
17				mentioned item was
18				received in evidence
19				as State's Exhibit No. 83-B,
20				for all purposes
21				after which time,
22				the proceedings were
23				resumed on the record,
24				as follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				MR. GREG DAVIS:  Judge, may I publish
	2	this briefly.
	3				THE COURT:  You may.
	4				MR. GREG DAVIS:   Ladies and
	5	gentlemen, this is a letter from Mellon Mortgage Company,
	6	May the 8th, 1996, addressed to Darin E. Routier and
	7	Darlie L. Routier, in reference to a loan number.
	8			"Dear mortgagor, your situation is serious.
	9	Your mortgage payments for April and May of 1996 have not
10	been received and you are in default of your loan.
11			 "Mellon Mortgage would like to help you.
12	Including late charges, the total amount past due is
13	$2,525.74.  If payments are not received by May 23, 1996,
14	you risk foreclosure.  You could lose your home.
15			"Additionally, a deficiency judgment could
16	be sought against you for any losses that might result."
17			It goes on then with instructions as to the
18	payment of these charges.
21			Q.	Sir, the situation by June the 3rd,
22	had gotten to the point where you got rejected on a five
23	thousand dollar loan at Bank One.  You remember that,
24	don't you?
25			A.	Yes, sir, that was an unsecured loan.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  You remember dealing with an
	2	Okie Williams, correct?
	3			A.	Yes, sir, I do.
	4			Q.	And, the bottom line on that
	5	transaction, sir, was that they would not loan you five
	6	thousand dollars unsecured, would they?
	7			A.	Not unsecured, no, but they would
	8	secured.
	9			Q.	You didn't get that five thousand
10	dollars from Bank One, did you?
11			A.	I wasn't too heartbroken about it
12	either.
13			Q.	Could you please answer my question?
14	Did you get the five thousand dollars?
15			A.	Did we get the loan?  No.
16			Q.	Okay.  That document, Defendant's
17	Exhibit 81, that summary, from Bank One that deals with
18	the month of June, it shows deposits of eleven thousand,
19	seven hundred and fifty-six dollars; is that correct?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  And again it shows --
22			A.	And only seven thousand came out.
23			Q.	Right.  Checks paid of seven thousand,
24	one hundred and fifty-four dollars and nine cents,
25	correct?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	So if we're correct for the first five
	3	months of '96 that you have receipts for seventy-four
	4	thousand dollars, if we add these deposits of eighty-five
	5	thousand dollars, we now have the receipts for six months
	6	of 1996, don't we?
	7			A.	Five months.
	8			Q.	No, sir.  I mean, I am including
	9	through June.
10			A.	One through six, yes, sir.
11			Q.	Right.  We have eighty-five thousand
12	dollars received and deposited in Bank One by Testnec,
13	don't we?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Two times eighty-five thousand is how
16	much money, sir?
17			A.	Two times eighty-five thousand?
18			Q.	Yes, sir.
19			A.	A hundred and seventy-some thousand.
20			Q.	Okay.  That is ninety thousand dollars
21	less than your company earned in 1995; is that correct?
22			A.	That is not adding the twenty thousand
23	that I still had on the books open.
24			Q.	No.  I'm just talking about monies
25	that you had received and put in there?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	And these represent accounts
	3	receivable for earlier months, don't they?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	A hundred and seventy-something
	6	dollars as opposed to two hundred and sixty thousand,
	7	would you agree with me that is a difference of ninety
	8	thousand dollars?
	9			A.	Yes, sir, it would have been.
10			Q.	And when you came into Court on July
11	the 1st, on that bond hearing, it's fair to say you were
12	trying to portray yourself as poor as you could that day,
13	weren't you?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	That's true?
16			A.	I am broke.
17			Q.	Because on July the 1st, when you were
18	asked about how much money was in this bank account, this
19	account that shows seven thousand, nine hundred and
20	forty-one dollars on June 30th, do you remember what you
21	told this Court, how much money you had in that bank
22	account then on July the 1st?
23			A.	I was guessing, about twenty-five
24	hundred.
25			Q.	Well, actually you guessed a little
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	bit lower than that.
	2			A.	Two thousand?
	3			Q.	Yeah.  I asked, "How much money do you
	4	have in that account?"
	5				"About two thousand dollars."
	6				You were about six thousand dollars
	7	short on July 1st, weren't you?
	8			A.	I don't recall.
	9			Q.	Well, seven thousand, nine hundred and
10	forty-one dollars minus two thousand dollars is what?
11	Five thousand, nine hundred and forty-one dollars?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Of course, that was on July 1st.  Now
14	the situation is that you are trying to paint this one as
15	rosy as you can about your finances, aren't you?
16			A.	There was nothing wrong with my
17	finances.  July the 1st, I just hadn't had the money come
18	in yet.
19			Q.	On June the 8th, you said that you
20	asked or said that you wanted these police officers to
21	videotape, or audio tape what you were saying, because
22	you really didn't trust them to get down everything that
23	you were writing, or that you were saying to them; right?
24			A.	I just can't write everything that I
25	think.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	You have had a lot of discussions with
	2	these attorneys.  They haven't even -- have they written
	3	down notes of what you told them?
	4			A.	Very little.  I don't know.
	5			Q.	Well, I would imagine given that fact,
	6	that you have obviously then asked them to audio or
	7	videotape you, haven't you?  Make sure that they get it
	8	down right?
	9			A.	No, sir, I haven't.
10			Q.	Would it be fair to say, that really
11	back on June the 6th, by your version, we have got a real
12	lucky intruder, don't we?
13			A.	There was an intruder.
14			Q.	A lucky intruder?
15			A.	Why lucky?
16			Q.	I mean, after all, he picked a house
17	where the window just happened to be open to the garage,
18	right?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	Just happened to pick a house where on
21	that night, the alarm system is not turned on or armed,
22	correct?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Lucky that in fact once he gets past
25	the alarm system off, he gets through the window, open,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	when he gets to the utility room, he just happens to find
	2	a sock available to him for his use that night, right?
	3			A.	Yes, sir.
	4			Q.	And lucky enough that when he does
	5	that, he gets into the kitchen and lo and behold there in
	6	the butcher block he finds a weapon to attack your two
	7	children and your wife, right?
	8			A.	My understanding is that it is called
	9	an opportunist.
10			Q.	No, my question is, he was lucky
11	enough that evening, that once he got past all that, the
12	murder weapon is actually provided inside the house;
13	right?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Lucky enough that while he is
16	attacking both your children, your wife doesn't wake up,
17	right?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Lucky enough that after he attacks
20	her, that in fact, she doesn't even get a good look at
21	his face, right?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Lucky enough, that as he is leaving
24	the house, he drops the knife on the floor there, and
25	your wife doesn't pick it up and doesn't use it against
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	him, right?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Lucky enough that when he gets into
	4	the garage that he doesn't deposit any blood on the
	5	floor, no blood on the window, correct?
	6			A.	I don't know anything about that.
	7			Q.	And then lucky enough that when he
	8	leaves out that garage into your back yard, that he
	9	either scales that fence without leaving a mark, or he
10	opens up that gate and he then latches and closes it
11	without anybody detecting that either, right?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	A real lucky guy, wasn't he?
14			A.	Yeah, and I want him dead.
15			Q.	So do I.
17				MR. GREG DAVIS:  No further questions.
23			Q.	I guess he is lucky that the police
24	don't pursue the leads that they received?
25			A.	Exactly.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Lucky that when people called in
	2	having seen a man with a black ball cap and a black
	3	T-shirt and jeans, in the vicinity, that the police
	4	didn't pursue it?
	5			A.	They never looked.
	6			Q.	Lucky enough that when Angel Rickels
	7	got a hold of them and they came out to her house, they
	8	weren't interested?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Lucky enough that the police are not
11	interested in pursuing the fingerprint that the man left
12	as he went out that window?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	You aren't responsible for the luck or
15	the happenstance of some crazy assailant, are you?
16			A.	No, sir.
17			Q.	Anything more precious to you than
18	those two youngsters?
19			A.	Nothing.  There is nothing more
20	important than those boys to us.
21			Q.	Have you ever doubted your wife's
22	innocence?
23			A.	No, sir.
24			Q.	Do you doubt it now?
25			A.	No, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I believe that's
	3	all we have.
	4			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I don't have any
	5	further questions.
	6			I would offer State's Exhibit 141, the
	7	voluntary statement given on June the 8th.
	8			THE COURT:  Any objection?
	9			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Is that his
10	statement?
11			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  No objection.
13	We'll call --
14			THE COURT:  Just a minute.  State's
15	Exhibit 141 is admitted.
17			(Whereupon, the item
18				Heretofore mentioned
19				Was received in evidence
20				As State's Exhibit No. 141
21				For all purposes,
22				After which time, the
23				Proceedings were resumed
24				As follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  You're under the Rule.  Do
	2	you understand that, sir?
	3			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	4			THE COURT:  Do not discuss your
	5	testimony with anybody who had testified.  In other
	6	words, do not compare it.
	7			You may talk to the attorneys for
	8	either side.  If someone tries to talk to you about your
	9	testimony, tell the attorney for the side who called you.
10			Of course, you have to remain outside
11	the courtroom when you are not testifying.
12			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
13			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
14	Step down, please.  Watch your step.
15			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Judge, could we
16	have a 705 hearing, pursuant to the expert testimony,
17	please?
18			THE COURT:  Well, you certainly can.
19			The jury will step back into the jury
20	room, please.
22			(Whereupon, the jury
23				Was excused from the
24				Courtroom, and the
25				Proceedings were held
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				In the presence of the
	2				Defendant, with his
	3				Attorney, but outside
	4				The presence of jury
	5				As follows:)
	7			THE COURT:  Will you raise your right
	8	hand, please, sir?
10			(Whereupon, the witness
11				Was duly sworn by the
12				Court, to speak the truth,
13				The whole truth and
14				Nothing but the truth,
15				After which, the
16				Proceedings were
17				Resumed as follows:)
19			THE COURT:  Do you solemnly swear or
20	affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
21	the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
22	help you God?
23			THE WITNESS:  I do.
24			THE COURT:  All right.  Have a seat
25	right there.  You have, of course, testified many times.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	You understand the Rule of Evidence.  You are under it
	2	now.  You don't need to have it explained to you now.
	3			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	4			THE COURT:  Thank you.  Let the record
	5	reflect that these proceedings are being held outside the
	6	presence of the jury, and all parties at the trial are
	7	present.
	8			This is a 705 hearing on Dr. DiMaio's
	9	testimony, and the conclusions and underlying data that
10	go to those conclusions.
11			So, if we could get right to the
12	point, please.
13			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Whereupon,
	5	was called as a witness, for the purpose of a hearing,
	6	outside the presence of the jury, having been first duly
	7	sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the whole truth,
	8	and nothing but the truth, testified in open court, as
	9	follows:
14		        Q.	Dr. DiMaio, my name is Toby Shook.  I
15	just have a few questions for you for this hearing.
16			What opinions have you come to testify
17	for today?
18		        A.	One, that the injuries incurred by
19	Mrs. Routier are those that would be incurred if one was
20	assaulted with a knife, and are not consistent with
21	self-inflicted wounds.  She has shown significant blood
22	loss, and that her hemoglobin dropped two grams.  She has
23	evidence of severe blunt trauma to both forearms, more on
24	the right than the left.  Let's see.
25		        Q.	Is that it?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Well, you know, I don't know exactly
	2	what questions I'm going to be asked, you know, but --
	3			Q.	Are those the only opinions -- has one
	4	of these attorneys gone over your testimony with you and
	5	asked you questions about what you are coming to testify
	6	to?
	7			A.	Yes, essentially those questions, I
	8	think there were some questions asked about bleeding, you
	9	know, how much do you bleed with different wounds, and
10	that sort of thing, only having to do with, again with
11	Mrs. Routier.
12			Q.	Okay.  The first opinion you said was,
13	that Mrs. Routier's wounds would have been, did you say
14	consistent with an assailant?
15			A.	What I'm saying is that, based on the
16	location and direction of the wounds and the nature of
17	the wounds, these are the type of wounds that one would
18	get if one was assaulted, rather than self-inflicted.
19	They are not consistent with self-inflicted wounds.
20			Q.	And what facts or data do you rely on
21	for that opinion?
22			A.	Essentially, the photographs of the
23	wounds and the medical records.  All of my opinions are
24	based on photographs of her and her wounds, the -- and
25	the medical records.  So that is about it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  And then, the other was an
	2	opinion on blunt trauma to the right arm, primarily, and
	3	then maybe blood loss?
	4			A.	You get various evidence of blood
	5	loss, her hemoglobin went down from 11.6 at about 3:30 in
	6	the morning, down to 9.6 the following day.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Is that, as far as you know,
	8	the extent of the opinion that you have come to testify
	9	for today?
10			A.	Yes, I think I have covered
11	everything.  Let me think a second.
12			Q.	And which attorney did you discuss it
13	with?  Was it Mr. Mulder?
14			A.	Well, my original conversation was
15	with Mr. Parks when he was originally -- he was the one
16	who originally retained me, and then I discussed it with
17	Mr. Mulder as well.
18			Q.	Okay.
20				THE COURT:  All right.
21				MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Is that as far as
22	it goes?
23				THE COURT:  Any objection?
24				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I think so --
25	that is pretty close, yeah.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  That's all then,
	2	Judge.
	3			THE COURT:  All right.  Any objection?
	4			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  We have none.
	5			THE COURT:  I didn't think so.  What
	6	about you, Mr. Shook?
	7			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  No, sir.
	8			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you,
	9	Doctor.
10			Bring the jury in, please.
12			(Whereupon, the jury
13				Was returned to the
14				Courtroom, and the
15				Proceedings were
16				Resumed on the record,
17				In open court, in the
18				Presence and hearing
19				Of the defendant,
20				As follows:)
22			THE COURT:  All right.  Ladies and
23	gentlemen, let the record reflect that all parties from
24	the trial are present and the jury is seated.  Ladies and
25	gentlemen of the jury, this witness has been sworn
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	outside of your presence.
	2			Mr. Mulder.
	3			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
	9	Whereupon,
13	was called as a witness, for the Defense, having been
14	first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the
15	whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in open
16	court, as follows:
22		        Q.	You are Dr. Vincent DiMaio?
23		        A.	Yes, sir.
24		        Q.	And will you tell the jury your
25	profession?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	I am a physician, presently employed
	2	as the chief medical examiner for Bexar County.
	3			Q.	You are a medical doctor?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.  I graduated from medical
	5	school in 1965 from the State University of New York,
	6	Downstate Medical Center.
	7			Q.	Dr. DiMaio, do you have a specialty in
	8	the field of medicine?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.  I am a specialist in the
10	overall branch of medicine called pathology which is the
11	study and diagnosis of diseases.  Then I have a
12	subspecialty in forensic pathology, which is essentially
13	a branch of medicine concerned with the application of
14	all aspects of medical science, the problems and the law.
15			Q.	Doctor, are you board certified?
16			A.	Yes, I am board certified in
17	anatomical pathology, clinical pathology and forensic
18	pathology.
19			Q.	Does a pathologist also perform
20	autopsies?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	And will you give the jury some idea
23	of how many autopsies you have performed?
24			A.	I would say that I've performed
25	somewhere over 7,000 autopsies, and supervised maybe
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	about 21,000, in addition.
	2			Q.	For how many years have you been the
	3	chief medical examiner for the county of Bexar?
	4			A.	Since March the 1st, 1981, so it will
	5	be 16 years come the end of February.
	6			Q.	And Dr. DiMaio, will you please
	7	outline for the jury your education and professional
	8	experience for the position that you now hold?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.  After graduating from
10	medical school and obtaining my M.D. Degree, I spent four
11	years additional training in the fields of anatomical
12	pathology, and clinical pathology at Duke Hospital in
13	Durham, North Carolina, and the King's County Downstate
14	Medical Center, in New York City.
15				I then spent the fifth year of
16	training in the field of forensic pathology at the Office
17	of the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland.
18				Following this, I took my board exams
19	in '70 and '71 and was certified as a specialist in the
20	three fields of anatomical pathology, clinical pathology,
21	and forensic pathology.
22				I then went into the military, I
23	served two years in the Army, assigned to the Armed
24	Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, D.C. where I
25	was chief of the medical legal section for one year, and
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	chief of the wound ballistics for another year.  Then I
	2	got out of the service, and I moved to Texas.  I took the
	3	position as a medical examiner in Dallas.  I was there
	4	from around June the 1st, '72 to, as I said, March the
	5	1st of 1981.  I was the medical examiner there and
	6	eventually ended up as the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner
	7	for Dallas County.
	8				That is about it.
	9			Q.	All right.  Now, Doctor, there is a
10	magazine or journal in the field of forensics, forensic
11	medicine.  Are you familiar with the American Journal of
12	Forensic Medicine and Pathology?
13			A.	Yes.  The American Journal of Forensic
14	Medicine and Pathology is the only medical journal
15	devoted to the field of forensic pathology published in
16	the United States.
17			Q.	Would you tell us who the editor in
18	chief is?
19			A.	I am the editor in chief.
20			Q.	Okay.  How long have you been editor
21	in chief?
22			A.	I think this is the 6th year.
23			Q.	You have published books in the past,
24	have you not?
25			A.	I have published three books.  I was
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the editor of one book on forensic pathology.  I wrote a
	2	book on gunshot wounds, which has been published.  And I
	3	am also the co-author with my father, who is the Chief
	4	Medical Examiner in New York City, on a book called,
	5	Forensic Pathology, which kind of covers all the other
	6	areas of forensic pathology except for gunshot wounds,
	7	which I covered in the other book.
	8			Q.	In addition to your father, you have
	9	other pathologists in the family, do you not?
10			A.	Actually, I -- well, yes, I guess
11	that's right.  The older of my three sisters is a
12	pathologist and my son is a pathologist in Houston,
13	hospital pathology, he is not interested in forensics.
14			Q.	You also have a sister who is a
15	pediatrics physician?
16			A.	No, two sisters in pediatrics.
17			Q.	Two, excuse me.  Doctor, in addition
18	to the books, you have published 70 or 80 articles, have
19	you not?
20			A.	70 articles, 7 book chapters and 10 or
21	11 professional scientific letters.
24				(Whereupon, the following
25				 mentioned item was
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				marked for
	2				identification only as
	3				Defendant's Exhibit No. 94,
	4				after which time the
	5				proceedings were
	6				resumed on the record
	7				in open court, as
	8				follows:)
11		        Q.	I have marked for identification and
12	record purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 94, your CV, which
13	would acquaint the jurors with your background and
14	qualifications?
15		        A.	Yes, sir.
16		        Q.	All right.
18			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  We will offer
19	into evidence what has been marked and identified as
20	Defendant's Exhibit No. 94.
21			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  No objection.
22			THE COURT:  Defendant's Exhibit 94 is
23	admitted.
25			(Whereupon, the item
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		Heretofore mentioned
	2		Was received in evidence as
	3		Defendant's Exhibit No. 94
	4		For all purposes,
	5		After which time, the
	6		Proceedings were resumed
	7		As follows:)
10	              (Whereupon, the following
11		mentioned items were
12		marked for
13		identification only
14		as Defendant's Exhibits
15		No. 82, 83, 84, 85, 86,
16		87, 88, 89, 90, 91,
17		92, 93 and 95,
18		after which time the
19		proceedings were
20		resumed on the record
21		in open court, as
22		follows:)
24	              MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Your Honor, at
25   this time, I'm going to offer into evidence what has been
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	marked and identified as Defendant's Exhibits 82, 83, 84,
	2	85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 95?
	3			THE COURT:  Any objection?
	4			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Wait a minute.
	5	What is 93?
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  93 was Dr. Santos
	7	report.  I think it was already in.  I just couldn't find
	8	it.
	9			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  No objection.
10			THE COURT:  All right.  Defendant's
11	Exhibits 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93
12	and 95 are admitted.
14			(Whereupon, the above
15			Mentioned items were
16			Received in evidence
17			As Defendant's Exhibits
18			No. 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87,
19			88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 95
20			For all purposes, after
21			Which time, the
22			Proceedings were
23			Resumed on the record,
24			In open court,
25			As follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	3			Q.	Doctor, so that we might identify
	4	these exhibits, Defendant's Exhibit 93 is an operative
	5	record that was dictated by Dr. Patrick Dillawn, and also
	6	bears the name of Alex Santos?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	All right.  And you have had that in
	9	the past, a copy of that to refer to?
10			A.	Yes, I have.
11			Q.	Okay.  And then Defendant's Exhibit
12	No. 95 is a Polaroid photograph that has been admitted
13	into evidence that is dated 6-6-of 96, at 16:05 hours,
14	which would be, I suspect military time, for 4:05 P.M. of
15	Darlie Routier.  This picture was taken June the 6th of
16	1996.  I'm sorry.  Can you see it now?
17			A.	Yes.  Okay.
18			Q.	Also, you have had occasion to see
19	that, have you not?
20			A.	Yes, I have.
21			Q.	All right.  And, could you come up
22	here so that Richard, and John maybe, so we can show the
23	jury the various photographs that we're talking about?
24	Maybe each could hold three or four.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I just
	2	want them generally to be familiar with the photographs
	3	that we have here.
	4			THE COURT:  I understand.  All right.
	5	Maybe we could get in line in order so we don't inundate
	6	the jury.
	7			MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:  Should I be at
	8	the end?
	9			THE COURT:  Well, let's put it at the
10	other side.  We would never place you at the end.
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I said the ones
12	in the hospital are June the 6th, the Polaroid is June
13	the 6th, and the deals where she is standing in clothing
14	other than hospital, are June the 10th.

17		        Q.	Dr. DiMaio, in reviewing Defendant's
18	Exhibit No. 93, that is the operative report, did you
19	determine from that report that Darlie Routier had
20	experienced considerable blood loss?
21		        A.	The -- yes, sir.  That in conjunction
22	with the lab reports.  That is, the report by Dr. Santos
23	describes an incised wound, running down the right side
24	of the neck onto the chest, and then a continuation on
25	the left side of the chest.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			And, he indicates that the -- he calls
	2	it a laceration, it's really an incised wound, a cut --
	3	extend down to the sheath of the carotid artery, and this
	4	is almost like a thin, transparent membrane, the best way
	5	to think of it, it looks like Saran Wrap, so, that was
	6	wrapping the vessel, and it is about a millimeter thick,
	7	there may be a little more there.
	8			So, essentially, you are talking about
	9	a cut that went down to, virtually, the wall of the
10	carotid artery.  And, if it had severed the carotid
11	artery, she would have bled to death, because the blood
12	would have pumped out in a matter of a few minutes and
13	there would have been death.
14			When you look at the rest of the
15	medical records, they indicate that when she came into
16	the hospital, she had a blood hemoglobin, that is the
17	amount of -- that is kind of a measurement, the amount of
18	hemoglobin that you have in your blood.
19			A blood hemoglobin level of about 11.6
20	and this is about 3:30 in the morning.  Then by the next
21	day, it had dropped two points, from 11.6 down to 9.6,
22	and what happened was is that she had lost a significant
23	amount of blood from this injury.  And -- but it's not
24	initially reflected.  That is, what happens is that when
25	you lose blood, your body compensates for it by
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	mobilizing fluid from outside the bloodstream and pours
	2	it in.
	3			In addition, when you go to the
	4	hospital, you know, they run those IV's, they are putting
	5	in fluids.  So what happened is, is that her hemoglobin
	6	appeared relatively normal when she came in, because the
	7	blood not been diluted by the fluids.  The fluids came
	8	in, it dropped.  And what it meant was, that she had lost
	9	a significant amount of blood from these wounds.  And in
10	fact, one of the diagnosis was acute posthemorrhagic
11	anemia, which meant she lost a lot of blood.
12			So this, these wounds were not, you
13	know, that and the other wounds on the arm, caused a drop
14	of two points in her hemoglobin, which is a significant
15	drop.
16		        Q.	Okay.  Dr. DiMaio, what is your
17	evaluation as regards to the seriousness of that neck
18	wound?
19		        A.	About another millimeter or two, and
20	she would have been dead.  It would have cut right
21	through the carotid artery.
22			In theory, you could put pressure on
23	to stop it, but, you know, in a real life situation,
24	people aren't trained like physicians, and she would have
25	bled to death.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				It's -- the carotid artery, or the two
	2	carotid arteries deliver 75 percent of the blood going to
	3	your head.  So, she would have lost approximately 40
	4	percent of the blood supply going to her head.  And every
	5	time her heart beat, there would have been a pulse of
	6	blood shooting out the neck, four or five feet, if she
	7	had cut the carotid artery.  And, the cut was, as I said,
	8	down to the sheath, a millimeter thick, maybe.
	9			Q.	Dr. DiMaio, have you had the
10	opportunity to view the photographs taken of Darlie
11	Routier on June the 6th, there in the hospital?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	And, have you also had occasion to
14	review and evaluate the photographs where she is in, not
15	in hospital garb but in regular civilian clothes, shorts,
16	I believe, the photographs that were taken on June the
17	10th of 1996?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Okay.  Do the bruises on June the 10th
20	of 1996 demonstrate bruising?
21			A.	Yes.  I mean, if you look at her arms
22	on the 10th, you can see there is just massive soft
23	tissue hemorrhage.
24				This is her right arm.  And what it is
25	going from the wrist right up to past the elbow and into
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the upper arm, so it's going, just sweeping, all the way
	2	here on what you would call the plexor surface of the
	3	arm, not on the back.  And this is extensive hemorrhage.
	4	And it appears to be a few days old, because it's
	5	turning, it's a good purple color, and it's indicative of
	6	severe, blunt trauma.
	7			This, you know, everyone bumps into
	8	something, an edge or something and gets a little bruise,
	9	but just think about, if you have gotten one little
10	bruise, how much force must have been generated, must
11	have been put against this arm to cause the whole arm
12	from the wrist past the elbow, to be bruised.
13			So that is a lot of force.  And so
14	there is evidence of really severe injury, and there is
15	like a little, a few little, what appears to be scrapes
16	here, indicating that there was an impact with something.
17			So, you're talking again of severe
18	force.  The left arm -- again, this is the right -- the
19	left arm is not too bad.  You can see it's going upward
20	to maybe a third to half a way up the forearm on this
21	surface.
22		        Q.	Doctor, you have noted, that no doubt,
23	that there is evidence in the photograph you have in your
24	left hand or just put down there on it, of a line, an
25	arterial line in her left wrist?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	And also, an IV in her, I guess, what
	3	is that, the inside of the left elbow?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.  Right.  Yes.
	5			Q.	That's what I call it.
	6			A.	All right.  That is good enough.
	7			Q.	All right.  At least --
	8			A.	At the cubital fossa, let's use the
	9	crease.
10			Q.	Is that bruising, in your judgment and
11	experience, is that a result of medical intervention?
12			A.	No.  The bruising here -- I mean, I --
13	at one time I actually treated live people.  I started
14	IV's.  That was the day before we had disposable needles,
15	and those needles were dull.
16				I can tell you, I perforated vessels
17	and there was blood, and you did not get this massive
18	hemorrhage into the arms.
19				And I have had IV's started on me,
20	where they have poked through, and you don't get it.
21	This is blunt force injury, and it's deep, it's deep down
22	into the muscle.  And so, it was deep down and then
23	gradually the blood percolates up to the surface
24	underneath the skin.
25			Q.	Doctor, directing your attention to
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the right arm, the photographs that depict the right arm?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	And, you will notice two stab wounds
	4	in the right forearm?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	One of some two inches in length and
	7	the other, of approximately a half inch in length?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	Do you have an opinion with respect to
10	whether or not the bruising associated with the right arm
11	was caused by those two stab wounds?
12			A.	No.  Stab wounds in those locations
13	would not produce that massive bleeding into the arm.
14				And in fact, if you even use a
15	little -- if you think about it, look at where they are.
16	They are on the back, and on the back, there is not much
17	bleeding.  Where is all of the bleeding?  Let's see,
18	excuse me.
19				There's so many, I have got to juggle
20	these things.  It's on the other side.  So, these stab
21	wounds have nothing to do with the bleeding in the arm.
22			Q.	All right.  Doctor, what sort of
23	instrument caused those injuries?
24			A.	The two penetrating wounds in the --
25			Q.	No.  No.  That caused the bruising?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	It would have to be something blunt.
	2	By blunt, I mean it doesn't have sharp -- it's not a
	3	knife, it's not something with very sharp margins.
	4				It could be blows from a fist, because
	5	your fist is considered a blunt object.  It could be
	6	blows from a hard object, people always like baseball
	7	bats, things like that.
	8				It could be anything that is heavy,
	9	that doesn't have any cutting edges and that can be, that
10	could impact hard against the arm, so to cause all this
11	bleeding in this area.
12			Q.	Are those injuries consistent and
13	compatible with Darlie Routier having been severely
14	beaten with a blunt, heavy instrument?
15			A.	Yes.  That is what they are.  These
16	are blunt force injuries.  Impacting something very hard
17	that produced extensive bleeding into her muscle.
18			Q.	Are those injuries consistent and
19	compatible, those shown in the photographs of June the
20	10th, of 1996, are those consistent and compatible, the
21	bruises evidenced in those photographs, with having been
22	received by Darlie Routier during the early morning hours
23	of June the 6th of 1996, some four days or so earlier?
24			A.	Yes, sir.  The coloration is
25	appropriate, and it is consistent with it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Dr. DiMaio, are those injuries
	2	consistent or inconsistent with having been
	3	self-inflicted, the bruising?
	4			A.	That is -- I would say it's
	5	inconsistent.  I mean, how do you get blunt force
	6	injuries here?  I mean, it's easy to get blunt force
	7	injuries here, if you want, you know, I can bang my arm
	8	against the edge here.  But to here?  And, also, again,
	9	it's very wide spread.
10				I mean this, this, a lot of force.
11	You -- everybody has bumped into something and you get a
12	bruise, but look at this.  It's just really severe
13	hemorrhage up and down the arm.  This is tremendous
14	force.
15			Q.	Doctor, what are defensive wounds?
16			A.	Defensive wounds are injuries that you
17	get when you try to ward off an attacker.  And, the
18	original description had to do with knives, and it could
19	also be blunt force.
20				In other words, if somebody is
21	swinging something hard at you like a hard object, and
22	you put your arm up like that and you get injuries here
23	and here, then you have what is called defensive wounds,
24	because they are incurred when you try to protect
25	yourself.  And people will typically protect the most
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	important part of the body, that is the head.  So people
	2	tend to raise arms up, if it's a blunt force, and try to
	3	protect their face and head.
	4			Q.	Doctor, I'll ask you to refer to the
	5	photographs and see if they don't depict an injury to the
	6	neck of Darlie Routier, an injury, a stab wound to the
	7	left chest of Darlie Routier, cuts to the left, inside
	8	fingers to three of her fingers on her left hand, and two
	9	stab wounds in her right forearm?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	All right.  Would you characterize any
12	of those injuries as defensive wounds?
13			A.	The wounds that you would consider
14	defensive would be the wounds of the back of the right
15	forearm.  This is a close-up in my right hand.  This is
16	the type of wound that if somebody was trying to stab at
17	you with a knife, what do you do?  You put your am up.
18	And there are two stab wounds here and here.
19				If she had been dead, and I had done
20	an autopsy, I would have called -- I would have put this
21	section down as two penetrating stab wounds of the right
22	forearm, parenthesis, defense wounds.  Because this is
23	the location that you get these wounds in, if somebody is
24	going to attack you with a knife.  It's typical.
25				That is, people who commit suicide
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	will cut themselves here.  Why?  Because this is the
	2	natural way to do it.  Although, they cut the edge, this
	3	way.  But these are vertically oriented, you know, on the
	4	hands in its normal position, and on the back.  And this
	5	is typical for the defense wounds, when someone is coming
	6	at you with a knife and you hold your arm up in the front
	7	of you, and this is where you would get the defense
	8	wounds.
	9		        Q.	Okay.
10		        A.	And the other place you get defense
11	wound are on the hands.  In fact, the original
12	description of defense wounds is on the hands.
13			Because what happens is someone comes
14	at you with a knife, you try to ward them off, a lot of
15	times they try to grab the blade, and you can see there
16	is a cut going across, a very superficial cut going from
17	one finger to the other and there.  This has the
18	appearance of one single cut.
19			All right.  I know someone says,
20	"Well, they don't exactly line up," but you know, your
21	fingers, you don't walk around with your hand like that,
22	I mean, you curl them and then maybe down or up.  And
23	this has the appearance, again of a defense wound.
24			Again, if this was an autopsy case, I
25	would put, you know, incised wounds of fingers,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	parenthesis, defense wounds.
	2			Q.	Okay.  Dr. DiMaio, have you had
	3	occasion in the past to examine injuries or render an
	4	opinion as regards to whether or not those injuries were
	5	self-inflicted?
	6			A.	Yes.  The last time I think was about,
	7	just before Christmas.  A nurse shot her, I think it was
	8	common-in-law husband, and her defense was is that he
	9	attacked her with a knife.  And, you know, they were
10	obviously self-inflicted wounds.
11				And my office has had two other -- in
12	the last three or four years, two other cases where the
13	defense was, you know, it was self-defense, and I had
14	to -- I warded off a knife, and these are defense wounds,
15	you know, these wounds were incurred, but actually they
16	were incised wounds.
17				One was, I think, an oral surgeon,
18	another one, a dentist.  And again, I had another case of
19	a doctor who self-inflicted wounds and was trying to say
20	he was attacked.
21			Q.	All right.  Dr. DiMaio, assume that
22	Darlie Routier is right-handed, are those injuries that
23	you observed in the photographs, are they consistent or
24	inconsistent with self-infliction?
25			A.	They are inconsistent with
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	self-infliction.  Both the wounds, the stab wounds on the
	2	back of the right forearm and the stab wounds on the
	3	neck.  Because if you look at the -- really, incised
	4	wounds.  When I say incised, I mean a cut.
	5			And, an incised wound is when, you
	6	know, the sharp edge of a knife runs across her body, but
	7	a stab wound is the tip going into it.  And, you can see
	8	here and here (demonstrating), then if we go close up,
	9	this is a much better close-up.
10			And what this shows, is that this
11	wound has started on the right side of her neck here,
12	across the midline going in a downward path, and then,
13	there is a gap and then there is a second wound.
14			So essentially, if you look at me,
15	there is an incised wound going like this, gap, and then
16	there is another knife wound here.  And, you know, if you
17	think -- the ruler -- think about this.
18			If this is a knife and you're
19	right-handed, I mean, you are going to have to be going
20	like this, the edge of the knife, and then skipping a
21	place, like that, then, changing hands and doing two stab
22	wounds here, this way.
23			And, because, you know, people don't
24	do things the hard way.  They do things simple.  So,
25	this, you know, try and say, you know, you are going to
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	cut like this, and then you have to cut like that, and
	2	then stab, doesn't make any sense for self-inflicted
	3	wounds, for a right-handed person.
	4			And people who are right-handed use
	5	their right hand for self-infliction of the wounds,
	6	because you don't think about it.  If I handed any of you
	7	this, you would pick it up with your dominant hand.  You
	8	wouldn't think anything.
	9			You wouldn't pick it up with your left
10	hand and manipulate it.  It's too difficult.  And people
11	don't think about that.  They are not going to say, "Oh,
12	I'm going to switch hands."  Now, like I said, the people
13	I saw were doctors and nurses and they self-inflicted
14	with the right hand, which was their dominant.
15			The wound on the neck is -- if I may
16	demonstrate on you?
17		        Q.	Sure.
18			THE WITNESS:  May I, your Honor?
19			THE COURT:  That is quite all right.
20			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  That is why I got
21	the ruler.
23			(Whereupon, the witness
24			 Stepped down from the
25			 Witness stand, and
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			 Approached the jury rail
	2			 And the proceedings were
	3			 Resumed as follows:)
	5			THE WITNESS:  As I said, this, and
	6	then you have to turn it like this, doesn't make any
	7	sense.  But that makes sense, or, that make sense.  Okay?
	8			And, what happens, you notice how he
	9	cringed?  Well, let's go in slow motion.  The knife comes
10	here, and starts to cut, and what will you do, you'll
11	lean back.
12			And of course, when you lean back,
13	there's a gap, but you stick your chest out and you get
14	here.  So it's like this, now lean back and so there is a
15	gap.  Stand straight.
17			THE WITNESS:  The cut comes down like
18	that, and now you start to go back.  And notice how you
19	get a skip, and if you look at these wounds, they line
20	up.
23		        Q.	Would that be the same if I were --
24	could you demonstrate that same thing if I were lying on
25	a sofa?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        A.	Sure.  It's the same thing.  Well, it
	2	doesn't make everybody horizontal, but it's the same way.
	3	If you look at this, this is one wound coming straight
	4	down this way.  It's coming from here, gap, space.
	5			And this is not consistent with
	6	someone self-inflicting it with the right hand.  I mean,
	7	obviously, you can't stab yourself in the back.  And
	8	people who do self-inflict wounds, will always use their
	9	dominant hand, because that is how you are taught to use
10	knives and things.
12			THE COURT:  Thank you, Doctor.  All
13	right.  We will recess for lunch now.  Until 10 minutes
14	after 1:00 o'clock.
15			All right.  Same instructions to the
16	jury as always:  Don't discuss the case among yourselves,
17	or with anyone.  Do no investigation on your own.  If you
18	see any publicity about the case either on radio or T.V.,
19	newspapers, please ignore it.  Thank you.
21			(Whereupon, a short
22				recess was taken, after
23				which time, the
24				proceedings were
25				resumed in open court,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			in the presence and
	2			hearing of the
	3			Defendant, being
	4			represented by his
	5			Attorney, but outside of
	6			the presence of the jury
	7			as follows:)
	9		THE COURT:  Are both sides ready to
10   bring the jury back in and resume the trial?
11		MR.  DOUGLAS D. MULDER:  Yes, sir.
12		MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir, the State
13   is ready.
14		THE COURT:  All right.  Bring the jury
15   in, please.
16		Will the Court come to order, please.
17		THE BAILIFF:  Please have a seat.
19			             (Whereupon, the jury
20				was returned to the
21				courtroom, and the
22				proceedings were
23				resumed on the record,
24				in open court, in the
25				presence and hearing
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			               of the defendant,
	2			               as follows:)
	4			THE COURT:  All right.  Let the record
	5	reflect that all parties in the trial are present and the
	6	jury is seated.
	7			Mr. Mulder.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
14		        Q.	Dr. DiMaio, are you familiar with
15	blood pattern interpretation?
16		        A.	To a certain degree, yes, sir.
17		        Q.	And Dr. DiMaio, as a medical doctor,
18	what aspects and variables from a medical standpoint must
19	be taken into consideration in blood pattern
20	interpretation?
22			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Judge -- excuse
23	me, Doctor -- could we approach the bench for one moment?
24			THE COURT:  You may.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			         (Whereupon, a short
	2				discussion was held
	3				at the side of the
	4				bench, between the Court,
	5				and the attorneys for
	6				both sides in the case,
	7				off the record, and outside
	8				of the hearing of the
	9				Jury, after which time,
10				the proceedings were
11				resumed on the record,
12				in the presence of
13				the jury as follows:)
15			THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you.  Go
16	ahead.
19		        Q.	Dr. DiMaio, what are the variables
20	that have to be taken into consideration from a medical
21	doctor's standpoint in blood pattern interpretation?
22		        A.	Okay.  Essentially, bleeding is not a
23	simplistic thing.  So, if you have -- some people think,
24	you know, if you cut yourself or you have a wound,
25	everybody bleeds the same.  But there are a lot of things
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	that go into how you bleed.
	2			One of the simplest is, it has to do
	3	with what is called, the Langer's lines, the elastic
	4	fibers in your skin.
	5			We all know as we get older, our skin
	6	sags.  And what happens is is that in the skin, beneath
	7	the skin, there are elastic fibers and they make the skin
	8	very contract, you know, contractile.
	9			And, they run certain ways through the
10	body.  And, have you ever seen anyone with a vertical
11	scar on their forehead, you notice how it stands out, but
12	then you see people who have horizontal scars and it gets
13	lost in the normal folds.
14			And plastic surgeons take advantage of
15	these elastic fibers to hide their scars.  And so, if
16	you -- let's say you have been stabbed.  Suppose you get
17	stabbed, if you get stabbed perpendicular to Langer's
18	lines, the elastic fibers pull open the wound and you get
19	a lot of blood coming out, if there is a vessel
20	underneath that is spurting, it will spurt out.
21			If you cut along the fibers, the wound
22	tends to be slit-like and it may not begin bleeding
23	immediately, or if it does bleed, it will not bleed as
24	much as the vertical one.
25			Then you have to take other factors.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Right beneath the skin in most parts of the body, you
	2	have muscle.  And everybody has had a muscle cramp, you
	3	know, when the muscle contracts down.
	4			Suppose you get a stab wound in the
	5	chest here, through the muscle.  Is the stab wound
	6	parallel or perpendicular to Langer's lines?  Then when
	7	it goes in, is it running with the muscle or against it?
	8	If it's running against the muscle, the wound will gape
	9	open.
10			If it's running with the muscle, it
11	will be slit-like.  And then you are irritating the
12	muscle, will it go into a cramp and shut down and reduce
13	the amount of bleeding?
14			Then, suppose you do have a stab wound
15	going through here.  And then suppose you move your arm
16	or maybe your arm had already been moved in an unusual
17	position when you had the wound, and now you moved it
18	back, the muscle can slide over, and there could be
19	contraction.
20			So, a simple stab wound may not be
21	simple.  The amount of bleeding may be determined by
22	Langer's lines, the elasticity of the skin, whether you
23	are cutting against the muscle or with the muscle,
24	whether the muscle contracts down.
25			And then, when you get into a body
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	cavity, do you hit a large vessel?  Does the bleeding
	2	from the large vessel go into the cavity first, and then
	3	leak out?  Or does it -- is the vessel so close to the
	4	surface that it pulsates out?
	5			Then, of course, you have clothing.
	6	You have, say, a shirt like that.  You get a stab wound
	7	here and then the clothing shifts, or maybe the clothing
	8	had been pulled over when you got the stab wound.
	9			Now the clothing shifts over it.  And
10	so that affects the way you're bleeding.  So the concept
11	people have is you get a wound and the blood comes out in
12	a simple pattern.  It is not that simple.
13			There are a number of factors that can
14	determine how much blood comes out, how fast, and whether
15	it comes out in spurts or kind of dribbles out, and
16	unfortunately, some people don't take that into account
17	in bloodstain interpretation and that is the Achilles
18	heel of bloodstain interpretation.
19			It makes an assumption that is not
20	true.  That all wounds are equal, all wounds bleed the
21	same, and that you can -- you have -- you are starting
22	out with a fixed concept, or fixed concept and then you
23	can interpret, and it doesn't always happen that way.
24			On top of that, you will actually get
25	certain areas of the body where you will get a wound, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	may not get any bleeding because the initial response to
	2	the shock is contraction down of the blood vessels.  Even
	3	if you have like a major artery, like the carotid artery.
	4	If you cut it, suppose you don't cut it all the way, you
	5	only cut it part of the way, and then someone else gets
	6	it cut all the way.  Which wound is worse?
	7			Actually, it's the wound where you
	8	only cut part of the way, because if you cut it
	9	completely through, an artery, which is elastic like
10	that, may go into contraction and may actually shut off
11	both ends for a short time before it pulsates.
12			But if you cut it open, you maintain
13	the open lumen of the vessel and the blood keeps pumping
14	out.  So the thing is bleeding and wounds and how the
15	blood comes out is complex and it's not simple, and to
16	try to assume everybody and every wound will bleed the
17	same, doesn't work out.  And again, that is the Achilles
18	heel.
19		        Q.	So, I guess what you are saying is
20	that, when somebody gets a stab wound or a puncture
21	wound, the body doesn't always bleed like water runs out
22	of faucet, when you turn the faucet on.
23		        A.	Right.  It depends on, again, all of
24	these factors, including clothing, whether it's with the
25	grain, against the grain, whether it's muscle, whether
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	you hit a vessel, there's a whole bunch of things.  And
	2	you can only generalize, but it may not actually, what
	3	you may say, may not apply in this case.  But you can
	4	just get a general feel.
	5			Q.	Dr. DiMaio, have you seen many victims
	6	of stab wounds?
	7			A.	Yes.  I would say a couple hundred in
	8	the last few years.
	9			Q.	Let me show you what's been marked for
10	identification and record purposes as State's Exhibit No.
11	25.
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	And it has quite a number of holes
14	that are taken for evidence purposes.  But it also has a
15	hole here, a defect here, and it has a defect here, and
16	it has a defect here.
17				I was thinking there were four of
18	those defects, but at any rate, here, here and here.  Do
19	you routinely find defects in clothing worn by a victim
20	where there is no corresponding stab wound or cut on the
21	body itself?
22			A.	All the time.
23			Q.	How is that?
24			A.	Because essentially, what you are
25	talking in most cases, it's not just somebody sticking a
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	knife in.  There is a struggle.  And you try to grab
	2	people, and most stabbings are close combat.
	3			Suppose you grab a shirt like this,
	4	and you pull it, and then a knife blade comes toward you,
	5	and you pull back, so it cuts the material.
	6			But, let's put it this way:  I would
	7	say that maybe a quarter of all cases, you will find a
	8	little tear, you know, of multiple stab wound cases, a
	9	little tear, a point where the tip of the knife has gone
10	through, and even a slash, and on the body it doesn't
11	correspond.
12			Because what's happened is, during the
13	struggle the clothing has been pulled away, or it --
14	maybe just hangs down, and so, when someone slashes the
15	knife, it catches the material, but it doesn't go in deep
16	enough to cut the body.
17			So that's just common, all the time
18	you will find defects in the clothing, and no injury to
19	the underlying body.  An examination of the clothing at
20	the time of the autopsy is part of the autopsy.
21			In my autopsy reports, and every one
22	that comes out of my office, if the person is wearing
23	clothing and we have the clothing, in the autopsy report
24	will not only be a description of the body, but will be a
25	description of the clothing, and whether there are
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	corresponding defects or noncorresponding defects in that
	2	clothing.
	3				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Thank you,
	4	Doctor.
	5				Mr. Shook will have some questions for
	6	you.
12			Q.	Dr. DiMaio, it's my understanding you
13	are the chief medical examiner of San Antonio?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Okay.  And additionally, you make
16	extra money coming in and testifying at -- out of other
17	jurisdictions?
18			A.	Right.  I am not here as -- in my
19	official capacity as chief medical examiner.  I am here
20	on my own time, compensatory time, and this is what I do,
21	you know, it's work on the side.
22			Q.	And when you are testifying as an
23	expert, for instance, today, how much -- what is your fee
24	that you charge for that?
25			A.	It depends on how far I have to go and
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	it depends on how long, it depends on how much time.
	2			Q.	In this particular case?
	3			A.	I think my total bill, when I submit
	4	it, is going to be about fifteen hundred dollars.
	5			Q.	Okay.  And, you, in recent years
	6	testified for, as I said, the defense in cases such as
	7	this, haven't you?
	8			A.	Yes, most of my testimony is for the
	9	prosecution in Bexar County, obviously, because that is
10	where my job is.  And then I -- on private, I do about
11	half the time for the prosecution and half the time for
12	defense.  This Friday I was testifying for the
13	prosecution in Florida, and Tuesday I am testifying for
14	the defense.
15			Q.	A medical examiner is not supposed to
16	be biased one way or the other; is that right, Dr.
17	DiMaio?
18			A.	That's correct.
19			Q.	You just, you get the body in and you
20	do the autopsy, and you testify to questions asked about
21	what you found; is that right?
22			A.	Right.  And that is what I'm doing
23	here.  I am just testifying to my scientific observations
24	of the wounds in this case.
25			Q.	And, you have testified for Mr. Mulder
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	before, haven't you?
	2			A.	When he was a district attorney, yes,
	3	and also when he was in private practice.
	4			Q.	How many times have you testified for
	5	him since he has been in private practice, would you say?
	6			A.	Maybe four or five times.
	7			Q.	Okay.  And have you consulted with him
	8	on other cases?
	9			A.	Well, he's shown me occasionally a
10	case or two, and I have told him things.
11			Q.	Did you make any report in regards to
12	this case?
13			A.	No, sir.
14			Q.	Any notes in regards to this case?
15			A.	Just this sheet right here.  If you
16	want to take a look at it.
17			Q.	And then the -- the only other items
18	you looked at were the photographs?
19			A.	And the medical records.
20			Q.	And the medical records.
21			A.	Yes.
22			Q.	Did you look at all of the medical
23	records?
24			A.	What?  Well, on my testimony.  I've
25	also -- I also have here some testimony by Dr.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Townsend-Parchman, but I'm not using any of that.  Do you
	2	want to take a look?
	3			Q.	Yes.  But you had the Baylor medical
	4	records to look at; is that right?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	Okay.  And is that -- and then you had
	7	some photographs.  When is the first time you looked at
	8	these photographs?
	9			A.	When I was originally given them by --
10	it was by Mr. Parks.
11			Q.	Okay.  You have not interviewed anyone
12	else in regards to your testimony or opinions?
13			A.	No, sir.
14			Q.	Have not talked to Dr. Santos or Dr.
15	Dillawn or any of the nurses at Baylor, have you?
16			A.	No, I have just read his medical
17	records and such, yes.
18			Q.	Okay.  And you said that you worked on
19	several cases where people have committed self-inflicted
20	wounds to try to, I guess, what, cover their tracks or
21	throw off blame on them?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Situations like that?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	So you do see that from time to time,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	don't you?  People will go to the trouble of actually
	2	having a self-inflicted wound to try to shove blame off
	3	on them?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	Or point it in another direction?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	I guess, in your line of work, it
	8	never ceases to amaze you what people can be capable of?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Okay.  Now, you say that -- well, let
11	me start this way.  You talk about --
12			A.	Excuse me.
13			Q.	Yes, sir.
14			A.	Are you through with my material, or
15	do you want to look through it?
16			Q.	Well, I was going to look at here in a
17	second.
18			A.	Okay.  That is fine.
19			Q.	Would it be better --
20			A.	No, no, no.  Go ahead and look at it.
21			Q.	I'll leave it with you in case you
22	need to refer to it.
23			A.	Okay.  My piece of paper.
25				THE COURT:  Can you all hear him okay?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				THE JURORS:  Yes.
	2				THE COURT:  Thank you.  All right.
	5			Q.	Now, as far as the seriousness of the
	6	defendant's wounds, Dr. DiMaio, wouldn't the surgeons who
	7	actually performed the surgery on her, be a better judge
	8	of how serious those injuries were?
	9			A.	Well, yes, sir.  And that is why I'm
10	using their description that it went down to the carotid
11	sheath.  If you are down to the carotid sheath, you are
12	within one or two millimeters of the carotid artery.
13				And then, of course, the medical
14	records, also -- I'm answering you now -- all the medical
15	records also show the hemoglobin has dropped by two
16	milligrams.  So --
17			Q.	But would you agree, Doctor, that the
18	surgeons who actually performed the surgery would be a
19	better judge to how serious their injuries -- or her
20	injuries were?
21			A.	They might be, yes, sir.
22			Q.	Well, they were there, weren't they?
23			A.	Yes, sir, but I don't know what -- but
24	I mean, you know, it's like saying, someone shot at me
25	with a .44 magnum and it missed me, so therefore, it
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	wasn't very serious.
	2			Q.	Doctor, that is not the question I
	3	asked you.  They were there, weren't they?
	4			A.	Right, yes, sir, they were.
	5			Q.	Okay.  They performed the surgery on
	6	her neck, didn't they, Dr. DiMaio?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.  And I'm basing my opinion
	8	on their description of it.
	9			Q.	They saw the wound opened and operated
10	on it?
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	So wouldn't they be the better judge
13	of just how serious that injury was?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Okay.  Now, as far as your opinion
16	about the defendant self-inflicting these wounds, are you
17	saying that it is impossible, that it couldn't have
18	happened?
19			A.	No.  What I'm saying is, that based
20	upon their location and their path, and the nature of the
21	wounds, it is more probable, the term I used, that it's
22	inflicted by someone else.  Anything is possible, but I
23	am saying in this case, it's not probable.
24			Q.	Okay.  And as far as the neck wound,
25	you were talking about -- well, how would you describe
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the neck wound?  Is it -- it's a pretty long wound, I
	2	guess, wouldn't you say?
	3			A.	It looks to be about three inches or
	4	so, the primary wound.
	5			Q.	Okay.  Have you actually gotten to
	6	examine her scar?
	7			A.	No.
	8			Q.	Okay.  Would that help you in some of
	9	your opinions, if you got to look close at the scar?
10			A.	It doesn't make any difference because
11	it is pictured in the photographs.
12			Q.	Okay.  So those would be fine for you?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	Okay.  You said -- do you have any
15	opinion as to how fast that wound would bleed out?  You
16	were talking about when Mr. Mulder was finishing these --
17	what did you call them?  Langer's lines?
18			A.	The Langer's lines, yes, sir.
19			Q.	Did that make a difference in this
20	case, or do you have an opinion as to how fast the neck
21	wound might bleed?
22			A.	No, sir.  All I know is that, you
23	know, she lost two milligrams -- two grams of hemoglobin.
24			Q.	If that neck was cut, or when it was
25	cut, would you expect it to bleed pretty quickly?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	It would begin bleeding fairly
	2	quickly, within 30 seconds to a minute, yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Would a neck wound like that bleed a
	4	lot, have a lot of blood coming out of it?
	5			A.	Under most conditions, it would bleed
	6	a lot, yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.  And, how would you describe the
	8	position of this wound on the neck.  Is it -- I mean,
	9	let's say, she didn't survive, she had died.  How would
10	you describe it in an autopsy?
11			A.	An incised wound.
12			Q.	Okay.  And what position would you say
13	it was on the neck?
14			A.	Okay.  It's on the -- okay, it would
15	be an incised wound of the anterior aspect of the neck,
16	beginning, say, this is -- I'm just throwing numbers out
17	saying --
18			Q.	Sure.
19			A.	-- 2 inches to the right of the
20	midline, above -- say an inch or two above the clavicle,
21	the collarbone and running downward and medially, that is
22	towards the center of the body, crossing the midline and
23	extending towards the medial end, that is the inner end
24	of the left collarbone.  And the incised wound extends
25	down through the muscle, up to the carotid sheath.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  How about the angle?  How
	2	severe an angle is the neck wound?
	3			A.	What do you mean, how severe an angle?
	4			Q.	Well, is it, like, vertical, oblique,
	5	horizontal?
	6			A.	It's an oblique.  It's running
	7	downward from right to left.
	8			Q.	As far as the neck wound goes, would
	9	you say it was a pretty long wound?
10			A.	Well --
11			Q.	I think it's in the medical --
12			A.	It's a couple of inches, right.  I
13	think it says 7.5 centimeters or so.  Let me see how long
14	is this drawing?
15			Q.	I thought I saw nine millimeters.
16			A.	Nine centimeters?
17			Q.	Or centimeters, I'm not sure.
18			A.	Okay.  Nine centimeters then would be
19	approximately four and a half inches.  No, let me see,
20	no.  It's three and a half inches, that is what I said.
21	Okay.  It's	2.5 centimeters per inch and 10 centimeters
22	would be four inches.
23			Q.	Okay.
24			A.	So, it's a little less than four
25	inches.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	A little less then four inches.
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	And looking at the photograph here in
	4	28-B, it covers most of the front of the neck, I guess,
	5	wouldn't you say?
	6			A.	It begins to the right of the midline,
	7	runs downward onto the upper chest, right.  Yes, sir, so
	8	that is the primary one.
	9			Q.	So we're talking about all down the
10	front of the neck?  Starting at the top right and going
11	down?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Now, you can't say, or maybe you can,
14	if it started here or there?  I mean, at which end it
15	starts, the cut?  Can you tell us which end, just looking
16	at it?
17			A.	No.
18			Q.	So it could go this way or that way?
19			A.	You could in theory say, it went up
20	this way.  But of course, the problem there is if you are
21	trying to say it was self-inflicted, it becomes even more
22	difficult.
23			Q.	Now Doctor, are you saying that the
24	defendant could not take this knife --- oh, I think we --
25	she could cut her own neck with this knife, couldn't she?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Well, I said it's possible, but
	2	improbable due to the -- if you look at it, see how it
	3	comes down and then skips and then down.
	4			Q.	Well, that is if you take it through
	5	that that is one long, continuous cut, right?
	6			A.	Yes, sir, and it lines up, and it's
	7	consistent with it.  Down, then you come, as you're
	8	coming, then you come back and put your chest out and
	9	then it catches it.
10			Q.	Well, I don't want to use this knife
11	on myself, obviously.  Let's try to measure it up here.
12	But there is nothing --
13			A.	It would settle the problem, how fast
14	the bleeding was, you know.
15			Q.	Yeah.  All right.  Well, I don't think
16	I will be demonstrating it.  Maybe Mr. Mulder could come
17	up here and do that.
19				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Hand me the
20	knife, I'll do it.
23			Q.	But there is nothing -- nothing that
24	would prevent her from taking that knife, if she wanted
25	to, and cutting across here?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	That's correct.  Then she would have
	2	to cut again, then she would have to change hands.
	3			Q.	Yes.  And then do --
	4			A.	Turn her arm like that.
	5			Q.	Yeah.
	6			A.	But, what I'm saying is, it's
	7	improbable.
	8			Q.	It's improbable?
	9			A.	Yes, because people who we've seen and
10	who have had incised, who do try to do that, do the same
11	thing, they always use the dominant hand, the right hand.
12	It's so ingrained that you don't even think about it.
13			Q.	That is what people usually do?
14			A.	Right.  These people are, you know --
15			Q.	Okay.  But there is nothing preventing
16	the --
18				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Excuse me.
19	Excuse me.  If you just will let him answer.
20				THE WITNESS:  These people, no insult
21	to the defendant, but they're a little better -- they
22	were better educated than her and they are familiar with
23	medical things and they may even be familiar with
24	forensics, which I seriously doubt that she is.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			Q.	But there would be nothing preventing
	3	the defendant from -- take the knife with the left hand,
	4	stabbing it right there in the right arm.  She could do
	5	that, couldn't she?
	6			A.	That's what I said.  I said it's
	7	possible, but not probable.
	8			Q.	Well, in fact, there were two wounds
	9	there on the right arm, aren't there?
10			A.	Right.
11			Q.	One is much smaller?
12			A.	Yes.
13			Q.	Didn't even require any sutures or
14	anything.  This wound we're talking about right here?
15			A.	Yes.
16			Q.	And, is this wound kind of right here,
17	Doctor, would you say in the middle of the forearm or
18	near the elbow?
19			A.	It's on -- it's approaching the side
20	of the arm.
21			Q.	Okay.  And this other one is right
22	above it?
23			A.	Right.
24			Q.	Okay.
25			A.	It's actually a little further towards
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the finger.
	2			Q.	You talk about hesitation wounds, that
	3	is when a person might work up enough courage, or testing
	4	out, for instance, sometimes you get suicides, they might
	5	cut a little bit before they make the big cut.  Is that
	6	right?
	7			A.	Hesitation marks are associated with
	8	incised wounds, right.  Cuts where they start to make a
	9	cut and it hurts, and then they start and it hurts, so
10	you will see a number of smaller wounds.
11			Q.	This smaller wound we see here could
12	be consistent with sort of a hesitation wound, couldn't
13	it?
14			A.	You could say that if you think
15	it's -- if you think they are self-inflicted.  Or, if
16	it's not self-inflicted, it's just a small stab wound.
17			Q.	Right.  It could go either way?  But
18	it could be consistent with someone stabbing their arm
19	and then stabbing it with greater force right below it.
20			A.	Right.  What I am talking about is
21	medical probability.  I'm not talking about possibility.
22			Q.	And, again, as far as the angle goes,
23	right-handed, I mean, do you think it's real difficult
24	just to do that?
25			A.	It actually is.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Well, I'm doing it, aren't I?
	2			A.	Yes, I know.
	3			Q.	Okay.
	4			A.	But well, okay.  Never mind.
	5			Q.	Okay.
	6			A.	It's difficult, but then again, okay,
	7	so you do it this way, which is difficult, it's easier
	8	just to go this way, and most people would go this way.
	9	Why go this way?  Why do it difficult?
10				First of all, if you're going to cut
11	yourself and you know it's going to hurt and everything,
12	why do it the hard way?  Why not just go that way?
13				You are saying she went that way, then
14	put the knife in her other hand and then stabbed herself.
15			Q.	Could do it?  Could happen though?
16			A.	It could happen, but --
17			Q.	Nothing could stop her and it's not
18	physically impossible to do that?
19			A.	It's not possible (sic) -- it's not
20	impossible, I said it's not probable.
21			Q.	As far as that blunt trauma goes, that
22	is severe blunt trauma; is it not?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	And the bruising that you see there,
25	you said -- could that be consistent with just being two
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	days old?
	2			A.	It looks to be a couple of days old.
	3	That's all I will say.  You can't date it any better.
	4			Q.	You can't come to dating them real
	5	close, can you, Doctor?
	6			A.	No, sir.
	7			Q.	If this photograph was taken on the
	8	10th, it's possible that injury could have happened on
	9	the 8th?
10			A.	It's possible, yes, sir.
11			Q.	Okay.  This bruise is still -- well,
12	somewhat crimson here on this.
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	Which shows it's a more recent bruise;
15	is that right?
16			A.	Well, I wouldn't say that.  I mean, I
17	have said that it can, so I wouldn't push my luck.
18			Q.	Okay.
19			A.	Okay.  With the coloration.
20			Q.	And blunt trauma is caused when
21	something strikes the skin very hard; is that right?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Okay.  And you have looked at -- it
24	could be like you say, people oftentimes use a bat,
25	right?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yeah, I just used it because everyone
	2	talks about a bat, but it could be anything hard.
	3			Q.	Does it look like there might be some
	4	kind of pattern to these abrasions?
	5			A.	The only thing that I saw that
	6	suggested a pattern of some sort was those little marks
	7	over there, but I'm not going to commit myself.
	8			Q.	Okay.  But this could possibly have a
	9	pattern, what you see here, these red --
10			A.	It could be something, right.
11			Q.	Okay.  And a pattern can be caused
12	when someone, I don't know, well, you tell the jurors how
13	a pattern can show up on skin.
14			A.	A pattern indicates that the surface
15	that -- impacting was not smooth.  I mean, there was some
16	irregularity on it.
17			Q.	A brick, something like that could
18	leave a pattern?
19			A.	Yes, sir, anything with a little
20	irregularity on it.
21			Q.	Okay.  And wherever it strikes the
22	skin, it might leave an abrasion to the skin?  Or --
23			A.	Well, only if you hit it on the side,
24	you have to hit the edge.
25			Q.	Okay.  And you can see, possibly, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	don't know, but possibly that's what we see here on the
	2	forearm?
	3			A.	Yes.
	4			Q.	These marks?
	5			A.	There's three or four marks there and
	6	I don't know what they are, they may be abrasions and
	7	such, but, it's too slim a thing to hang your hat on, I
	8	mean.
	9			Q.	Right.
10			A.	Mix up what I'm saying, but, let's put
11	it this way, it's there, the significance, I'm not sure.
12			Q.	Well, on Defendant's Exhibit 86, do
13	you also see maybe a similar-type abrasion?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Okay.  And on, I think, it's 52-E, you
16	have already pointed out this area.
17			A.	Right.
18			Q.	But also, right along in there, is
19	there also an area?
20			A.	Well, I'm talking about the same
21	thing.
22			Q.	All right.  All that area.  And this
23	bruising, obviously, goes from here to here?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	More on inside; is that right?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Again, looking at it from the other
	3	point of view, if you wanted to self-inflict those
	4	wounds, you would just have to take an object and hit the
	5	inside of your arm; is that right?
	6			A.	Interesting, it's again, with the
	7	non-dominant hand, yes, sir.
	8			Q.	If you wanted to do it.  Or you could
	9	just take your arm against the wall and whack it real
10	hard, couldn't you?
11			A.	Not -- the wall wouldn't work because
12	your hand would hit also.
13			Q.	Your hand would hit?  Okay.  But you
14	could do it if you wanted to?
15			A.	It's possible.  It would be very hard.
16			Q.	But again, like you said, in your line
17	of work you see people do all kinds of things?
18			A.	Occasionally.
19			Q.	You didn't get any information in the
20	medical records that Mrs. Routier had any blunt force
21	trauma to her torso, did you?
22			A.	No.
23			Q.	To her head or face?
24			A.	That's correct.  There's photographs
25	of the face and then part of, well, just her upper
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	extremities, upper chest.
	2			Q.	Okay.  This -- getting back to the
	3	neck wound again, it's almost four inches across and
	4	extends across the front of the neck; is that right?
	5			A.	No, it four inches long.  It begins in
	6	the neck and then runs down onto the chest.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Wouldn't you consider that, as
	8	far as a neck wound, a pretty long wound?
	9			A.	Four inches is fairly long, yes, sir.
10			Q.	Okay.  And is it just one, is it just
11	one wound?  The primary one we are talking about on the
12	neck, is that made with one swipe of the knife?
13			A.	The only description says, it says one
14	wound, so that's the only thing.  But, it's all been
15	sewed up at that point.
16			Q.	Okay.  Well, looking at the photos and
17	what the description is from the medical reports, that's
18	what it shows?  It shows one long --
19			A.	It shows a single swipe, yes, sir.
20			Q.	Okay.  Now, you gave an example of --
21	well, usually, when you see someone that has been
22	attacked from the front, frontal attack to the neck with,
23	let's say with a knife or sharp instrument?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	Those wounds inflicted are usually
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	short, are they not?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Here we have a more long,
	4	continuous wound?
	5			A.	Well, okay.
	6			Q.	Is that different?
	7			A.	By short, most -- okay, if you are
	8	talking about incised wounds of the neck, generally, they
	9	run about that size which would probably be about three
10	or four -- three or four inches, you know, three or four
11	inches for a neck wound, could be called short.  I mean,
12	they are not going to be one-inch wounds, obviously, they
13	are going to be a couple of inches.
14			Q.	Well, just a moment ago you said you
15	would consider it long, did you not?
16			A.	Yeah, it's long.  It's not short --
17	but when you ask me about short wounds to the neck, I'm
18	talking three or four inches, too.  I mean, I'm
19	talking -- a long wound to the neck is when somebody gets
20	someone behind you and runs it completely around, so you
21	are talking about six or seven inches.
22				But slash wounds of the neck typically
23	run like this, because what happens is they will slash
24	down like this, and so you will see it running about that
25	length.  But a long wound would be if you're cutting
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	someone's throat from ear to ear.
	2			Q.	Now, defensive wounds, you said that
	3	you usually see those on the palms of the hand, don't
	4	you?
	5			A.	No, I said the original description of
	6	them is on the palms of the hand, but you will get them
	7	on the palms of the hands, and on the back of the
	8	forearms, even on the back of the other arms.  We have
	9	had people lying on the ground who have put their legs up
10	and have gotten them actually in their legs.
11				All that a defense wound means, is
12	that it is a wound incurred, in an extremity, in an
13	attempt to ward off an attacker.
14			Q.	And it's just natural to put your
15	hands up and that kind of thing, to block off blows,
16	knife or blunt trauma?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	And you will often see, for instance,
19	in a knife attack, wounds to the palms of the hand?
20			A.	Well, the fingers and palms, yes, sir.
21			Q.	And they can be quite deep?
22			A.	They can be deep, yes, sir.
23			Q.	Cut to the bone often, don't they?
24			A.	They can be, yes, sir.
25			Q.	Now, this particular wound to Mrs.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Routier's hand, that is not a very deep wound, is it?
	2			A.	No, it's a very superficial -- there's
	3	actually three of them, but I think it's probably one
	4	swipe, but they're very superficial.
	5			Q.	Extremely superficial?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Also, many times on your
	8	defensive wounds, you see them -- what part of the arm do
	9	you call this?
10			A.	You talking about plexor surface?
11			Q.	I guess so.  If that is the word I'm
12	looking for.
13			A.	Yes.
14			Q.	You put your arm up.  You will see
15	cuts across that way in defensive wounds?
16			A.	Actually, most defensive wounds from
17	knives are in the back, they are not on this surface.
18				In fact, that's the way you can tell
19	people come in with scars.  People come in with scars on
20	this surface, you think they may have tried suicide.
21	This surface, you think they have been in knife fights.
22	So --
23			Q.	What's this surface called?
24			A.	That would be the posterior aspect,
25	back of the forearm.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	And what is this surface called?
	2			A.	Plexus.  Okay.  It's this surface,
	3	plexor surface.
	4			Q.	And you are saying you don't see
	5	defensive wounds on the plexor surface?
	6			A.	Well, you can see -- what I'm saying
	7	is, you're asking me where they usually occur.  And they
	8	are classically described as being on the back and not
	9	here.
10				These suicidal wounds are described as
11	being on this surface.  Homicidal, that is where people
12	attack you, on the back.
13			Q.	Okay.  Usually, in cases of homicide,
14	the assailant doesn't leave the weapon at the scene, does
15	he?
16			A.	Yeah, that's correct.
17			Q.	Okay.  Another area I wanted to ask
18	you:  Did you look at the autopsy reports on the two
19	boys?
20			A.	I just briefly went through them, but
21	since I didn't intend to testify in anything about them.
22			Q.	I just had one quick question about
23	that.  As far as stab wounds in this case or any other
24	case, the angle, how it goes in the body.  Let me show
25	you this one.  You see this stab wound number 1?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	It shows the knife coming across this
	3	way into the torso.  You can't tell from an autopsy if
	4	the person was laying on their back and they were being
	5	stabbed at this angle, if they were moving around and
	6	maybe the knife went in that way; is that right?  Do you
	7	understand what I am saying?
	8			A.	Well, I think so.  What you're saying
	9	is, that just by examining the stab wound alone, you
10	can't say necessarily whether they are standing up or
11	lying down.  Is that the question?
12			Q.	Right.
13			A.	The answer is yes.
14			Q.	And even if they were lying down, they
15	could be moving around during the attack when the knife
16	is going in?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	Okay.  And as far as blood on the
19	knife, I think that it's your understanding that three
20	people could have been cut with this knife; is that
21	right?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Now, if blood of one of the children
24	was not found on this knife, that is not -- you can't
25	say, well, then this knife wasn't used to do the killing,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	could you?
	2			A.	No.
	3			Q.	Oftentimes --
	4			A.	It's only significant if you find
	5	blood, it means something; if you don't find it, it
	6	doesn't mean anything.
	7			Q.	When you stab someone in the body,
	8	skin might wipe it off, an organ might wipe it off, that
	9	kind of thing?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	Okay.  As far as -- here, let me give
12	you your notes back.  I don't want to forget those.
13			A.	Okay.  Thank you.
14			Q.	The blunt trauma that the defendant
15	received, you wouldn't expect her to sleep through that,
16	would you?
17			A.	No.
18			Q.	Okay.  And that is going to hurt when
19	you get hit like that?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	And, is it a natural reaction, would
22	you say, that the person that is getting hit with blunt
23	trauma, they are going to yell out?
24			A.	Well, I would assume -- well, I don't
25	know, I have not beaten anybody, so I can't say.  I would
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	think it would depend on the person, I mean what is going
	2	on, I mean, you know.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Nothing --
	4			A.	I think that is outside of my area.
	5			Q.	Nothing would prevent a person from
	6	yelling out if they were suddenly attacked in their home
	7	and someone started hitting them with a stick, brick or
	8	whatever?
	9			A.	I guess not, no, sir.
10			Q.	And certainly, the defendant, when she
11	is stabbed on the throat, wouldn't sleep through that,
12	would you think?
13			A.	No, sir.
14			Q.	I mean, they are going to wake up when
15	someone starts cutting you with a knife?
16			A.	Well, I think she would have to have
17	been moving by virtue, as I said, of going backward,
18	because I think that is one slice wound.
19			Q.	Okay.  And if her children were in the
20	same room and stabbed, you wouldn't expect her to sleep
21	through that either, would you?
22			A.	Well, depends.
23			Q.	Okay.
24			A.	It depends on how violent the attack
25	was and it depends on how hard the person sleeps, but
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	most -- under most circumstances, you would think that
	2	they wouldn't sleep through it.
	3			Q.	Well, if you had information that they
	4	were a light sleeper and that they had taken amphetamines
	5	that day, and the amphetamines in fact, are in their
	6	blood when they were taken to the hospital, you wouldn't
	7	think they would sleep through that, would you?
	8			A.	I would say under most circumstances,
	9	right.  I think phentermine, not amphetamines.
10			Q.	Well, what is that?
11			A.	Phentermine is a -- the toxicology
12	report, the only drug present being phentermine, not
13	amphetamines.  Phentermine is essentially a weight
14	reducing drug.
15			Q.	Okay.  It's certainly not something
16	that will put you to sleep though, right?
17			A.	No.
18			Q.	And, if one of your children were
19	about as far from I am to you right now, the one that had
20	all of the stab wounds in the back, Damon, you wouldn't
21	expect her to sleep through that, would you?
22			A.	Again, as I said, under most
23	circumstances, no, sir.
24			Q.	Okay.  And if the other child was
25	about from, about this distance, say about five feet, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	wouldn't expect her to sleep through that either, would
	2	you?
	3			A.	Under most circumstances, no, sir.
	4			Q.	Okay.  And did you review the wounds
	5	that those children received, Dr. DiMaio?
	6			A.	I looked, again, as I say, I looked at
	7	them, I didn't pay that much attention.
	8			Q.	Those were obviously deep, penetrating
	9	wounds to the trunk, were they not?
10			A.	Obviously, yes, sir.
11			Q.	Okay.  What do you think happened
12	first, the blunt trauma, or the cut to the neck?
13			A.	It would be speculation on my part.  I
14	can't answer that.
15			Q.	Okay.  And would you say, Dr. DiMaio,
16	that the wounds that the children received, the deep,
17	penetrating wounds to their trunk areas, are extremely
18	different from the type of incised wounds that she
19	received?
20			A.	Well, by definition, a stab wound and
21	an incised wound are different things.  And so the
22	incised wound is inflicted from a swipe with a knife,
23	while stab wounds is with the tip end, yes, sir.
24			Q.	You have come across, I think, you
25	have, in one of your books that I have looked at, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	have a section about children that are killed, homicides?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	And, you talk about, I think it's in
	4	the miscellaneous section, that sometimes children are
	5	killed, they are shot or stabbed or things like that?
	6			A.	Most killed -- most children are
	7	murdered within the first two or three years of life --
	8	usually, within the first two years of life or the first
	9	year.
10			Q.	Okay.  And again -- well, let me make
11	sure I get the quote right.
12				In talking about these miscellaneous
13	deaths where children are stabbed or clubbed or shot, I
14	believe that you write that, "Homicides are committed by
15	sane individuals, for reasons that may or may not be
16	apparent.  There are two groups in this category:  First
17	are violent deaths, which while no attempt is made to
18	conceal the cause of death, the perpetrator will attempt
19	to make the death appear to be an accident, or due to
20	another individual.  Thus, the perpetrator will relate
21	that a child accidentally drowned in the bathtub or fell
22	in a river.  There may be claims that a child was
23	kidnapped by a bearded or masked individual."
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	So you have had -- seen situations
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	where it's a very violent death to a child and the
	2	perpetrator might say, well, just try to blame it on
	3	someone else?
	4			A.	Oh, yeah.
	5			Q.	Okay.  I don't know if I caught this
	6	right.  Did you say people just -- people can commit
	7	suicide by cutting their own throat, can't they?  You
	8	have seen that, haven't you?
	9			A.	Yes.
10			Q.	And when they do that, they do one
11	long continuous cut, don't they?
12			A.	Usually what they do is they will
13	start high up on the side and they will cut down this way
14	and then they will stop about here.
15			Q.	Okay.
16			A.	If they are right-handed, you know.
17	If left-handed, then they will start and they will come
18	down.  It will be cut through, it will start up high,
19	below the ear and then cut down this way.
20			Q.	Starts up high and then comes down at
21	an angle?
22			A.	Yeah, and then loops across the other
23	side.
24			Q.	And then all the way across the neck?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.
	2			A.	Well, up to a certain point.  Usually,
	3	they only get here.  Because what happens is, once you
	4	get to this point, it becomes difficult to angle the
	5	knife.
	6			Q.	Thank you, Doctor.
	8				MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  That's all I have.
	9				THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder?
16			Q.	Doctor, just a thing or two.  Are you
17	familiar with amnesia following a traumatic event?
19				MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Judge --
20				THE COURT:  Sustain the objection.
21	705 hearing.  The doctor has testified as to what the
22	basis of his testimony is going to be.
23				Move on to the next question.
24				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			Q.	Doctor, there is a Polaroid photograph
	3	up there, that was taken by a member, I believe it's
	4	Beddingfield of the Rowlett Police Department.
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	It has some writing on the back.
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	Do you see anything in that photograph
	9	that is dated, I think at 16:05 on June the 6th of '96,
10	do you see anything to indicate bruising of that
11	particular arm?
12			A.	There is a suggestion of some
13	discoloration below this wound over here.
14				Unfortunately, because it's out of
15	focus, you know, it's difficult to say.
16			Q.	Okay.  It would be somewhat unusual to
17	batter someone in an isolated incident, just on the arms,
18	wouldn't it?
19			A.	You mean in defensive?
20			Q.	No, just to -- the bruising here?
21			A.	Um-hum.  (Witness nodding head
22	affirmatively.)
23			Q.	It's likely that this occurred at the
24	same time that the stab wounds were inflicted, is it not?
25			A.	Yes, I mean, right, yes.  I thought I
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	had said that.  Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Okay.
	3			A.	All I said was, I couldn't say whether
	4	it occurred immediately before or after.  There is no way
	5	to say.
	6			Q.	And they have quite a sensitive test
	7	now, to determine the presence and absence of blood, even
	8	though the instrument has been wiped clean, don't they?
	9			A.	Right.  You can do a test that would
10	identify the blood.  You might not be able to type it,
11	but you could say that there was hemoglobin present, or
12	material that tests positive for hemoglobin.
13			Q.	One last thing:  You have testified
14	before lunch that, in your opinion, those bruises are
15	consistent with Mrs. Routier having been beat violently
16	with a blunt instrument on or about both of her arms.  It
17	would not be unlikely to also receive an injury to the
18	head during that beating, would it?
19			A.	That's correct, yes, sir.
21				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I believe that's
22	all.  Thank you.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	4			Q.	But you saw nothing in the medical
	5	records that showed any blunt force injury to the head,
	6	did you?
	7			A.	No, not to the face.  I mean, that
	8	also includes the top and back covered by hair and there
	9	is no mention in the records, and, of course, I can't see
10	it on any photographs.
11			Q.	And no indication that anywhere in the
12	medical records that she complained about getting her
13	head whacked real hard?
14			A.	That's correct.
15			Q.	Okay.  If you are going to get the
16	blunt trauma to the arm that is going to cause that kind
17	of damage, and you got hit in the head anywhere, it would
18	cause a pretty big knot, wouldn't it?
19			A.	It may.  I mean, you know, what we're
20	talking about is not a stationary -- it's not like you
21	are hitting a stationary object.  You would have to say
22	that -- it's like, what's on one arm that person would be
23	moving trying to avoid it.  So, it just depends on how
24	hard the impact is.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I mean,
25	I can't say.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Well, if a person got hit on the head,
	2	as hard as they did on the arm obviously, that is going
	3	to cause an injury, is it not?
	4			A.	Right.  If that was the case, right.
	5	But I'm saying, I can't, you know I cannot discuss
	6	something that I don't know if it was there or not and
	7	say how much force was used to produce a wound which may
	8	or may not be there.
	9			Q.	Because you don't have evidence or
10	information that tells you that there was any injury like
11	that?
12			A.	That's correct.
14				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Okay.  That's all we
15	have, Judge.
16				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  That's all we
17	have.  May he be excused?
18				THE COURT:  Any objection?  All right.
19				Doctor, you are excused subject to
20	recall.  You are instructed not to discuss your testimony
21	with anybody.  If someone tries to talk to you, tell the
22	attorney for the side who called you.  And, of course,
23	you are subject to recall.
24				THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honor.
25				THE COURT:  All right.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		Your next witness.
	2		MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Dr. Lisa Clayton.
	3		THE COURT:  All right.
	4		MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, could we
	5   approach the bench?
	7		         (Whereupon, a short
	8			discussion was held
	9			at the side of the
10			bench, between the Court,
11			and the attorneys for
12			both sides in the case,
13			off the record, and outside
14			of the hearing of the
15			Jury, after which time,
16			the proceedings were
17			resumed on the record,
18			outside the hearing of
19			the jury as follows:)
21		THE COURT:  All right.  Ladies and
22   gentlemen, if you will step back to the jury room,
23   briefly, please.
25		(Whereupon, the jury
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Was excused from the
	2			Courtroom, and the
	3			Proceedings were held
	4			In the presence of the
	5			Defendant, with his
	6			Attorney, but outside
	7			The presence of jury
	8			As follows:)
10		THE COURT:  Let the record reflect
11   that these proceedings are being held outside of the 12   presence of the jury and all parties at the trial are 13   present.
14		Raise your right hand, please, ma'am.
16		(Whereupon, the witness
17			Was duly sworn by the
18			Court, to speak the truth,
19			The whole truth and
20			Nothing but the truth,
21			After which, the
22			Proceedings were
23			Resumed as follows:
25		THE COURT:  Do you solemnly swear or
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
	2	the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
	3	help you God?
	4			THE WITNESS:  I do.
	5			THE COURT:  Have a seat right here,
	6	please.  Pull that microphone there.  There you go.
	7	Okay.  And, you have testified before?
	8			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
	9			THE COURT:  You are under the Rule of
10	Evidence.
11			That simply means -- do you understand
12	what that means?  You may not discuss your testimony with
13	anybody, don't compare it with anybody who has testified.
14	You may talk to the attorneys for both sides.
15			If someone tries to talk to you about
16	your testimony, tell the attorney for the side who called
17	you.
18			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
19			THE COURT:  All right.  These
20	proceedings are being held outside of the presence of the
21	jury and all parties at the trial are present.  This is a
22	Section 705 hearing to determine the basis of this
23	doctor's testimony.
24			So, if you will state your name and
25	spell your name, and Mr. Shook is going to be asking you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	some very direct questions, and if you will just answer
	2	those.  And move on and get the jury back in.
	3			Go ahead Mr. Shook.
	4			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Thank you, Judge.
	8	Whereupon,
12	was called as a witness, for a hearing outside the
13	presence of the jury, having been first duly sworn by the
14	Court to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
15	but the truth, testified in open court, as follows:
21		        Q.	Dr. Clayton, could you tell the Court
22	your opinions --
24			THE COURT:  First of all, state your
25	name, and spell it.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE WITNESS:  Lisa, L-I-S-A, initial
	2	K, Clayton, C-L-A-Y-T-O-N.
	3			THE COURT:  Thank you.  Go ahead.
	6		        Q.	Could you please disclose the opinions
	7	that you have come to testify on today?
	8		        A.	Well --
10			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, I think I
11	can probably sum this up a little bit quicker.
12			THE COURT:  All right.
13			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  She will testify
14	as to what psychic numbing is.  She will testify with
15	respect to traumatic amnesia.
16			She will testify as to the effect of
17	the certain sedatives and pain pills and medication.  She
18	will testify -- she is a psychiatrist, Judge.  She is an
19	MD, and she will testify as to her training in forensic
20	psychiatry.
21			THE COURT:  Well, we will place you as
22	an expert.  If you will just sum up what your findings
23	are and what you are going to testify to.
24			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, if I could
25	go on a little bit more, I can do it.  She will testify
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	as to, Dr. Resnick and Dr. Scott's studies with respect
	2	to mothers who kill their children.  And she studied
	3	under Dr. Resnick and trained under him, and she will
	4	testify with respect to the six categories of mothers who
	5	kill their children.
	6			She will testify that she has examined
	7	Darlie Routier, that she has spent, however many hours
	8	with her that she spent with her, that she has
	9	interviewed not only her, but family members.
10			And then, we will go through each of
11	these categories, and she will render an opinion, and
12	tell why it is or isn't applicable to this particular
13	case.
14			That is basically -- she will testify
15	with respect to grieving, and she will testify as to
16	whether or not she believed that on or about the 3rd day
17	of May of 1996, she believed that the accused was
18	involved in a serious suicidal attempt.
19			THE COURT:  Well, anything, Mr. Shook?
20			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Yes, if I could
21	just ask the doctor some questions.
22			THE COURT:  Sure.
25		        Q.	So one of your opinions will be about
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	psychic numbing; is that right?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Could you tell us what that is?
	4			A.	Psychic numbing is a term that is used
	5	by psychiatrists and psychologists to describe someone
	6	when they have experienced a traumatic event, whether it
	7	be some sort of assault, witnessing an assault, rape,
	8	witnessing some sort of tragic life threatening kind of
	9	event that may not necessarily threaten them, but
10	threaten someone else.
11				And it just describes how some
12	individuals are essentially -- go through kind of a state
13	of, I guess, psychic shock, is also another term for it,
14	where they may be somewhat emotionalist.  They may remain
15	kind of somewhat detached from any type of emotion that
16	other people might expect someone to have.
17				There may be periods of emotion and
18	then also periods of, again, detachment.  And again, it's
19	a phenomenon that is seen with anybody that -- or with
20	some people, not all people -- but some people that go
21	through any kind of a tragic, shocking kind of
22	witnessing-type event.
23			Q.	And, what are the facts or underlying
24	data that you used to form that opinion in this case?
25			A.	Various, I guess, psychiatric
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	textbooks, there's some articles that have been written
	2	about psychic numbing, but predominantly, I guess,
	3	psychiatric and psychological textbooks.
	4			Q.	Have -- is any of your opinion based
	5	on the interview with the defendant?
	6			A.	About the psychic numbing?
	7			Q.	Yes.
	8			A.	Yes.
	9			Q.	Okay.  And then also, is any of that
10	done with -- by interviews with relatives, friends?
11			A.	Yes.
12			Q.	Were any other tests performed?
13			A.	Are you talking about in relation to
14	the psychic numbing?
15			Q.	Right.
16			A.	No, sir.
17			Q.	Is that all the data then that you
18	relied on in forming your opinion on the psychic numbing?
19			A.	No, I also listened to the 911 tape.
20			Q.	Okay.
21			A.	And then I also read her written --
22	Mrs. Routier's written statement to the police.
23			Q.	Okay.  Then is that all the data then
24	that you used in forming that particular opinion?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Then traumatic amnesia, is that
	2	another opinion you will be testifying to?
	3			A.	Yes.  That is something that occurs
	4	when, or can occur when an individual, again, experiences
	5	some type of traumatic event where they may have kind of
	6	no memory for, again, parts of the event.  They may have
	7	memory of before and then sometime afterwards regain
	8	memory.
	9				There have been, again, in the
10	literature, psychiatric literature case reports, it's
11	also in psychiatric textbooks that essentially some part
12	of the memory, it's still encoded, but some part of the
13	memory, it's just essentially dissociated from their
14	conscious memory.  And, sometimes hypnosis can bring it
15	back, but then sometimes it cannot.
16			Q.	And again, what is the underlying
17	facts or data that you used to form that opinion in this
18	case?
19			A.	Mrs. Routier's statement.  Again, I
20	guess, the 911 tape, the interview, interviews, I spent
21	over 12 hours on different dates talking to Mrs. Routier.
22	The interview with her family, and just various
23	psychiatric textbooks and articles.
24			Q.	Okay.  And, then, you were going to
25	give an opinion, I believe, on sedatives or the effects
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	of sedatives?
	2		        A.	Yes, sir.
	3		        Q.	Okay.  What is that?
	4		        A.	It's basically how certain kinds of
	5	sedatives that Mrs. Routier had in her system, I guess,
	6	at the first interview when she was still in the
	7	hospital, of Demerol and Phenergan.
	8			And then, also, throughout the -- I
	9	guess the time after she came home from the hospital, she
10	was on painkillers, she, -- various family members and
11	friends, because of her, I guess, emotional state, gave
12	her numerous pills, such as Valium and Xanax.
13			These kind of medications serve as
14	disinhibitors, and if anything, it's almost like some
15	sort of a truth serum.
16			There is a famous type of interview
17	that psychiatrists sometimes use called an Amytal
18	interview, and basically they use Amytal which is a
19	fairly short-acting barbiturate drug.  And, it kind of
20	relaxes the person's defenses, and they tell the truth.
21			Again, she was not under that
22	medication, but she was under the influence of numerous,
23	similar medications that would serve to disinhibit her,
24	and while she was being interrogated or interviewed about
25	the offenses, it would -- any type of -- usually any type
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	of disinhibition would be -- she would experience, and
	2	most likely it would induce the truth.
	3			Q.	And, what underlying facts or data
	4	have you used to form that opinion?
	5			A.	Again, her -- all of the ones that I
	6	already listed, I guess would be.
	7			Q.	Her interview as well as the other
	8	interviews you talked about?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Okay.  And Mr. Mulder said you were
11	going to talk about studies on mothers that kill their
12	children; is that right?
13			A.	Yes, sir.
14			Q.	The six categories.  Are you going to
15	render an opinion about that?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	Okay.  What is that opinion?
18			A.	Well, Dr. Resnick has listed or
19	proposed six categories.  And my opinion about Dr.
20	Resnick's categories are that Mrs. Routier or Mrs.
21	Routier does not fit in any of those categories.
22				Dr. Scott has five categories and,
23	again, in my opinion about his categories are that she
24	doesn't fit in any of those categories either.
25			Q.	Okay.  What are those categories?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1			A.	Dr. Scott's categories are battering
	2	mothers, retaliating mothers, mentally ill mothers,
	3	unwanted children, and mercy killings.
	4				Dr. Resnick's categories are,
	5	altruistic murderers, acutely psychotic murderers,
	6	unwanted-child murderers, accidental murderers,
	7	spouse-revenge murderers, and then another -- his last
	8	category which does not correspond is neonaticide, which
	9	is murder of a baby within the first 24 hours of life.
10			Q.	And what underlying facts or data did
11	you use to come to that opinion?
12			A.	Again, the -- my interviews with
13	Darlie, with her family, again, I guess, the 911 tape,
14	the written statement by her, the various textbooks and
15	articles, and obviously, the articles written
16	specifically about those categories, but then also, other
17	psychiatric textbooks and categories.
18			Q.	And what other opinions was it that --
19	grieving, I believe, is that the other opinion you are
20	going to render?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	What's that opinion?
23			A.	That opinion has to do with --
24	everyone grieves in different ways, and that there is no
25	appropriate type of way of grieving.  There may -- you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	might, if you are going to categorize them, you might, as
	2	far as healthy and unhealthy.  But people grieve in
	3	different ways.
	4			I guess I am going to give an opinion
	5	about -- that the events at the cemetery, which some
	6	people have misinterpreted, was an appropriate form of
	7	grieving.  Do you want me to go into --
	8		        Q.	Yes, please, your opinion.
	9		        A.	That it was not planned to be that way
10	by Mrs. Routier, that they had had a prayer service
11	before, which she was crying, her mother had told her
12	that she needed to quit crying so much, that they were
13	going to be -- that the neighborhood kids were going to
14	be there and that it would scare them and upset them,
15	that she tried to essentially put on almost an
16	hysterical-like, kind of happy face.
17			Her sister, her younger sister had
18	bought this Silly String, and then, they had the kind of,
19	essentially, celebration as if the child was still alive
20	for the benefit of neighborhood kids.  That it reflects
21	some cultural and biblical context, in that Christians
22	are taught, that if they believe in the Resurrection
23	that, you should celebrate a death because the person is
24	no longer here on earth to suffer, but they are in
25	heaven.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				That, there are other customs, and the
	2	Irish wakes, where people actually party with the
	3	deceased body present.  And, that there is different
	4	cultural standards.
	5				And again, grief is not something that
	6	is a -- universally applied to everyone in every
	7	situation.
	8			Q.	So your opinion on that, I guess a lot
	9	of that came -- the facts on that came with the interview
10	of the defendant?
11			A.	Yes, sir.  And, then I guess, you
12	know, everything I also listed.  I had, I guess, I did
13	review parts, or see parts of the news media tape, and
14	then also my, I guess, biblical and Christian training or
15	knowledge.
16			Q.	And, I think the last opinion listed
17	was a suicide attempt on May 3rd?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	What's the opinion on that?
20			A.	My opinion is that Mrs. Routier was
21	not imminently suicidal.  That it was more of a gesture.
22	She did not make an attempt.  She phoned her husband.
23				It was more kind of -- she was just at
24	her wits end at that moment, that her husband immediately
25	came home, he -- things changed, she began -- he began, I
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	guess, kind of helping around the house more, that she
	2	was never actually going to go through with this.
	3			It was not a fatal-type attempt.
	4	Obviously, there was no attempt.  The outcome, obviously,
	5	was not fatal.  And, that her partial suicide note that
	6	was in her, I guess, diary shows her love and compassion
	7	for her sons.
	8			That her, you know, depression or
	9	dysphoria was related probably to not having her period
10	due to the fact that she was breast feeding.  That she
11	had stopped breast feeding but still had not had her
12	period.
13			That within three to four days she
14	began her menstrual cycle again, and there was a dramatic
15	change in her mood, and that this was not some chronic
16	type of depression or postpartum psychosis that lasted
17	until the events on the first -- in the first part of
18	June.
19		        Q.	And, again, what are the underlying
20	facts and data that you rely on for that opinion?
21		        A.	I guess her suicide note, the diary,
22	my interviews with her.  My interviews with the families,
23	family members.  And again, I guess her statement, and
24	then various, again, psychiatric textbooks and articles
25	dealing with depression, suicide attempts and postpartum
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	depression.
	2		        Q.	Okay.
	4			MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  If I could have
	5	just one moment, please?
	6			THE COURT:  Yes.  Do you have anything
	7	else, Mr. Shook?
	8			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  No, sir.  I believe
	9	that is all the opinions; is that right?
10			THE WITNESS:  Yes.
11			THE COURT:  All right, thank you.
12	Bring the jury in, please.
14			(Whereupon, the jury
15				Was returned to the
16				Courtroom, and the
17				Proceedings were
18				Resumed on the record,
19				In open court, in the
20				Presence and hearing
21				Of the defendant,
22				As follows:)
24		        THE COURT:  All right.  Let the record
25	reflect that all parties in the trial are present and the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	jury is seated.
	2			Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this
	3	witness has been sworn outside of your presence.
	4			This is Dr. Lisa Clayton.  C-L-A-Y-T-O-N.
	5			Mr. Mulder.
	9	Whereupon,
14	was called as a witness, for the Defense, having been
15	first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the
16	whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in open
17	court, as follows:
23			Q.	Dr. Clayton, would you tell the jury
24	your name, please?
25			A.	Dr. Lisa K. Clayton.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	And, you are a physician, a medical
	2	doctor?
	3			A.	Yes, sir.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Will you tell the jury your
	5	educational background and experience that qualifies you
	6	as a medical doctor?
	7			A.	Yes, sir, I received my Bachelor's
	8	degree in psychology from the University of Oklahoma.  I
	9	was also a premed --
11				THE COURT:  Ma'am, you are going to
12	have to speak a lot louder than that so the last two
13	jurors can hear you.
14				THE WITNESS:  Oh, okay.
15				I received my Bachelor's degrees in
16	psychology from the University of Oklahoma.  I was also
17	premed at the time.
18				I applied, and was accepted into
19	medical school.  Four years later, I graduated from Emory
20	University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia.
21				During medical school you rotate
22	through your third and fourth years.  You rotate through
23	the various specialties of medicine such as OB-GYN,
24	surgery, internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry.
25				It was during these medical school
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	rotations that I decided that I wanted to specialize in
	2	the medical field of psychiatry.
	3			After I graduated from medical school,
	4	I did a one year general internship at Emory in Atlanta.
	5	This consisted of working in neurology, internal medicine
	6	and psychiatry.
	7			After I completed my internship, I did
	8	two years of full time psychiatric residency training at
	9	Emory in Atlanta.  I then moved to Dallas, Texas, and
10	completed my fourth year of psychiatric residency
11	training at U.T. Southwestern Medical School in Dallas.
12			There is now a sub-specialty in the
13	field of psychiatry, called forensic psychiatry.  It's
14	basically how psychiatry interacts with the law in both
15	civil and criminal matters, and also has to do with
16	taking care of and evaluating inmates who have either
17	been accused of a crime, or already convicted of a crime,
18	and are incarcerated, but have some sort of psychiatric
19	disturbance and need medication.
20			I did a one year -- after I did my
21	four years of residency -- internship and residency, I
22	did an extra year called a fellowship.  This was a
23	specialization in forensic psychiatry.  I did this at
24	U.T. Southwestern.
25			This consisted this year, of working
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	solely in forensic psychiatry.  I worked at the Dallas
	2	County jail, I have worked at the federal prison in
	3	Seagoville.  I have worked under various other forensic
	4	psychiatrists.  I attended SMU Law School classes.  I
	5	also went to various conferences and workshops around the
	6	country that had specialization courses in various
	7	aspects of forensic psychiatry.
	8			Since the time that I have completed
	9	my forensic fellowship I have been in private practice in
10	the Dallas area.
11			My private practice consists of both,
12	general adult psychiatry and some forensic work.
13			I have an office by Baylor downtown, I
14	am on staff at Baylor and I see both in-patients at
15	Baylor Hospital, and I also see out-patients.
16			I also work at some senior centers at
17	Baylor and see geriatric patients.  I work approximately
18	8 to 10 hours a week at the Dallas County jail, where I
19	see inmates who are accused of crimes or have already
20	been convicted, but they need psychiatric medication
21	evaluations or maybe to be put on suicide watch.  But I
22	see them solely as a Dallas County psychiatrist.
23			I work one day a week at Corsicana,
24	residential youth treatment center, where I evaluate
25	juveniles who of been committed to TYC, but then have
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	also been found to have some severe mental disturbance,
	2	and they are sent to Corsicana.
	3				I -- and also in part of my forensic
	4	practice I evaluate criminal defendants, such as Mrs.
	5	Routier, and then I also evaluate cases in civil
	6	litigations also.
	7				I evaluate people for competency,
	8	sanity, dangerousness, that sort of thing.  And, I also
	9	am on the clinical teaching staff at U.T. Southwestern,
10	where I help out in the community oversee residents who
11	are in training, and, I think that is about it.
12			Q.	Okay.  Very good.
13			A.	And, oh, I'm sorry.  I'm licensed to
14	practice medicine in both the states of Texas and
15	Georgia.
16			Q.	All right.  Dr. Clayton, are you
17	frequently called upon to render a psychiatric opinion,
18	an expert opinion in court?
19			A.	I guess I would call it frequently,
20	yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  Have you testified in court
22	over one hundred times?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	And you have been qualified as an
25	expert?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	All right.  I'll ask you, Dr. Clayton,
	3	approximately how many people have you examined who were
	4	charged with criminal offenses?
	5			A.	Any type of criminal offense?
	6			Q.	Yes.
	7			A.	I'm sure over a thousand.
	8			Q.	Okay.  Can you give the jury some idea
	9	as to how many people you have examined who are charged
10	with either murder or capital murder?
11			A.	Probably, I guess around seventy-five
12	to a hundred.
13			Q.	Okay.  Dr. Clayton, is there a
14	difference in examining someone who is charged with a
15	serious criminal offense as opposed to seeing someone who
16	is -- as an out-patient in your office?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	Okay.  And what is that difference?
19			A.	The difference is, is in an
20	out-patient or office, regular relationship it is a
21	therapeutic relationship.  Psychiatrists are essentially
22	taught, in our training to be very accepting and
23	believing of what people tell you, until you find out
24	otherwise.
25				That is the reason that I did the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	extra year of forensic fellowship training.  Because,
	2	when you are working in the realm of criminals, you need
	3	to be able to assess and confront that what they are
	4	telling you, may in fact be not truthful, out and out
	5	lies, and that sort of thing.
	6				And so, I have received special
	7	training in how to, I guess, confront, how to look for
	8	people who are lying, are not telling the truth, and that
	9	sort of thing.  So, it's much more of an aggressive type
10	of evaluation and interview.
11				The, you know, -- I am not trying to
12	treat the person, I am just trying to evaluate and render
13	an unbiased opinion.
14			Q.	Okay.  Are there techniques, that you
15	as a physician would employ, to determine whether or not
16	the person you are examining is being truthful with you,
17	or whether they are fudging or lying, or being deceitful
18	or otherwise trying to influence the examination and your
19	ultimate evaluation of them?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  Would you tell the jury, just a
22	give them some example of how you do that?
23			A.	Well, the best probable technique is
24	time, time, time, and the amount of time you spend with
25	someone, and have it be over different periods, not all
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	like in one day, but maybe see them and then wait a
	2	couple of weeks and then see them again.
	3			You have them go over the story, and
	4	first you have them talk about something that you know is
	5	true, such as their birthdate and where they grew up and
	6	that sort of thing.  Then you move on, after a period of
	7	time, and you observe their body language, their
	8	emotional state, their blink rate, their fidgeting, their
	9	posture, the tone of their voice, the way they word
10	things, their, I guess descriptions, and just that sort
11	of thing.
12			Then you move on to the topic in
13	question, such as, the crime, the alleged crime.  And
14	have you -- have them talk to you about that.
15			Again you observe to see if there is a
16	change in demeanor; and, again, their movements, their
17	voice, their eye contact, their blink rate.
18			A lot of times when people are lying
19	to you they will look you straight in the eye because
20	they have always heard that, you know, you don't -- if
21	you are not looking in the eye, so you look for such
22	things like that, and they will, you know, they will
23	start looking you straight in the eye, instead of kind of
24	the way they have been looking at you before.
25			You also look for the changes in their
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	voice, motion, the way they relate the story.  And then
	2	again, you go back and do this over again at a later
	3	date.
	4			You also are assessing when someone is
	5	telling the truth.  Most often, anybody relating any kind
	6	of story there is slight discrepancies or changes, just
	7	because of the way our memory works.  So, you are looking
	8	for that, versus someone that is telling a rote lie, they
	9	tend to be very ridged, the wording is almost exactly the
10	same every single time.
11			So, you look for different kind of
12	nuances, about that In their description.  And then
13	again, you do this again, over and over, to -- at
14	different times, if possible, to just assess, you know,
15	whether someone is telling you the truth.
16		        Q.	Okay.  And in the course of your
17	psychiatric practice, are you frequently called upon by
18	prosecutors and defense lawyers, as well as requested by
19	judges, to examine someone and render a professional
20	opinion?
21		        A.	Yes, sir.
22		        Q.	Now, Dr. Clayton, are you familiar
23	with the psychiatric studies of Dr. Scott and Dr.
24	Resnick, concerning the categorization by them of women
25	who have killed their children?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Okay.  And, I think one of the
	3	physicians divides it into five categories; is that
	4	correct?
	5			A.	Yes, sir, Dr. Scott has the five
	6	categories, and then Dr. Resnick, he has -- his
	7	categories pretty much coincide with Dr. Scott's, but he
	8	added another category, and he has six categories.
	9			Q.	All right.  Both of those physicians
10	are considered to be two of the leading authorities in
11	that field, are they not?
12			A.	Yes, sir, they are.
13			Q.	Do you personally know Dr. Resnick?
14			A.	Yes, sir, I do.  I had the luxury or
15	the pleasure of training under him during my forensic
16	fellowship.
17			Q.	Okay.  All right.  Can you tell the
18	jury what those categories are?
19			A.	Okay.  Doctor -- you just want me to
20	list them out?
21			Q.	Yes, if you would please?
22			A.	Dr. Scott's categories are battering
23	mothers, retaliating mothers, mentally ill mothers,
24	unwanted children mothers and mercy killing mothers.
25				Dr. Resnick, he categorized them as
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	altruistic murderers, acutely psychotic murderers,
	2	unwanted child murderers, accidental murderers and spouse
	3	revenge murderers, and then his last category, which is
	4	in addition, is neonaticide, which is the killing of an
	5	infant within the first 24 hours of life.
	6			Q.	Okay.  Would it be fair to say that we
	7	could, I think Dr. Scott calls the first category the
	8	battered child --
	9			A.	Yes.
10			Q.	Or the battering mother?
11			A.	Yes, and that kind of coincides with
12	Dr. Resnick's accidental.
13			Q.	Okay.  Could you explain to the jury
14	just what that is?
15			A.	Well, both of them, are pretty much
16	the -- both of the doctors use pretty much the same
17	description.  That it is a child who has experienced --
18	or a mother who has abused the child over a long period
19	of time, and then, actually doesn't mean to kill the
20	child, but just the physical abuse finally does become
21	fatal.
22				And those children show long history
23	of, you know, bruising, broken bones, past injuries, and
24	then finally there is one injury that finally is fatal to
25	the child.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  It is just where they have
	2	gotten into a routine, and they just -- that last time,
	3	they just went too far?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	And, many times is that not evident
	6	when the pathologist x-rays the child, and can see the
	7	broken bones that have mended, and things of that nature
	8	that would alert the physician?
	9			A.	Yes, I mean, it's almost always
10	evident on autopsies that, not only by x-rays but just
11	the physical exam of old bruising, healed wounds and
12	scaring and then the history of the broken bones.
13			Q.	Okay.  Dr. Scott calls the next
14	category retaliation, or the retaliating mother, and
15	would that correspond to Dr. Resnick's revenge mother?
16			A.	Yes, sir, those are the two that
17	correspond.
18			Q.	Okay.   And, could you acquaint the
19	jury with that category, please?
20			A.	This is a category where it's a mother
21	who is usually very angry at the child's father, whether
22	it be her husband or not.
23				Most often the way they talk about it,
24	the mother has been -- is separated, or the father is not
25	living in the home, and it's getting back at the father.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				The father may be having an affair and
	2	still living in the home.  But basically the mother kills
	3	the child in order to hurt her husband or the baby's
	4	father.
	5			Q.	Okay.  Dr. Scott's third category, is
	6	what he calls the mentally ill mother, and I think Dr.
	7	Resnick calls that the psychotic mother.  Can you tell
	8	the jury about that category, please?
	9			A.	Yes, this is a mother who becomes what
10	we call psychotic or grossly mentally ill.  In that they
11	are hearing voices, they are delusional, they are
12	paranoid, they usually don't try to hide the fact that
13	they have killed the baby, they may kill a child that
14	they think is of the devil, or, that God has told them to
15	do this.  That sort of thing.
16				They are very disorganized, usually
17	before and after the murders, they exhibit psychotic
18	symptoms that are very evident to even, usually, lay
19	people, before and after the murders and they are
20	basically just very crazy and mentally ill and that is
21	what causes them to kill their children.
22			Q.	Okay.  And they generally confess and
23	justify it in their own minds, don't they?
24			A.	Oh, yes, they don't try to hide the
25	murder and they are very open about it usually.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        Q.	Okay.  All right.  And frequently,
	2	the mentally ill and the psychotic category would exhibit
	3	symptoms that the lay person could recognize readily?
	4		        A.	Yes.  Someone that is psychotic, you
	5	don't just suddenly snap and for 10 minutes be acutely
	6	psychotic and then snap back.
	7			It may be a fairly brief psychosis in
	8	that it, you know, might just last a few hours today, but
	9	there has been -- usually there are symptoms where they
10	aren't able to keep their house, they may not be able to
11	keep themselves groomed.
12			They start saying weird things to
13	their family and friends.  They might start talking about
14	hearing voices, they become paranoid.
15			They might have very rapid,
16	unexplained mood swings, where one minute they are
17	talking normally, and the next minute they are crying
18	hysterically and that is probably in response to the
19	voices and the delusions that they are having.
20			And again, it's not --  you don't just
21	go from being totally normal to 10 minutes or an hour of
22	psychosis.  It's something that may be limited, but there
23	is a what we call prodromal, and then residual symptoms
24	before and after.
25			But usually it is much longer.  I
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	would say months to years, in these mothers that they are
	2	talking about.
	3			Q.	It's not something that you could turn
	4	on and off like a water faucet?
	5			A.	No, sir.
	6			Q.	Okay.  How about the unwanted
	7	category?
	8			A.	There again, that is the same, in both
	9	of the doctors' classifications, those are usually --
10	they are usually predominantly teen-age mothers who have
11	children out of wedlock, the majority of the children in
12	this category show signs and actually the majority,
13	pretty much predominantly all of them show signs of
14	neglect, meaning not being fed properly, they may be very
15	thin, they may have vitamin deficiencies, kind of dirty,
16	not being kept clean.
17				In the category of both of these
18	doctors, over 50 percent actually died from the neglect,
19	meaning that that was the cause on the autopsy was
20	malnutrition, that or untreated medical illness that
21	eventually led to their death.
22				So, again, it's not something the way
23	that you categorize it where it's a very sudden thing.
24	It's usually a long prodromal history of a mother
25	exhibiting signs of rejecting the child before the mother
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	actually kills the child.
	2			Q.	Okay.  And in Dr. Scott's last
	3	category, I believe he calls it the mercy category, and
	4	Dr. Resnick calls that category -- or his corresponding
	5	category would be the altruistic?
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Is that correct?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	So could you explain to the jury that
10	category, please?
11			A.	Well, this is the -- well, there is
12	kind of two different types.  This is the mother who was
13	suicidal but sees that, you know, the child cannot live
14	without her, or she is afraid that the husband or
15	relatives, or there is no one to take care of the child,
16	and so there is no hope for the child, so, this is the
17	mother that kills her children, and then kills herself.
18				It also is the mother who may have a
19	mentally retarded, terminally ill, chronic illness child,
20	where the mother feels like that the child is "better off
21	dead," and that she needs to kill the child in order to
22	relieve the child's suffering.
23				So those are pretty much the
24	descriptions in that category.
25			Q.	All right.  That would be the final
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	category for Dr. Scott, and then I believe that Dr.
	2	Resnick had a 6th category, did he not?
	3		        A.	Yes, his was again neonaticide, which
	4	is the mother who -- usually it's a mother who has the
	5	baby at home, oftentimes the pregnancy has been hidden,
	6	and what happens is within the first 24 hours of life,
	7	the mother kills the infant.
	8		        Q.	Okay.
10			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you,
11			Ladies and gentlemen, members of the
12	jury, we're going to take a 15 minute break now.  We're
13	going to break until 3:00 o'clock.  And, members of the
14	viewing audience, it will be necessary at this time to
15	vacate the courtroom, please.
16			All right.  Nothing dangerous, just a
17	housekeeping chore.
19			(Whereupon, a short
20				recess was taken, after
21				which time, the
22				proceedings were
23				resumed in open court,
24				in the presence and
25				hearing of the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Defendant, being
	2			represented by her
	3			Attorney, but outside of
	4			the presence of the jury
	5			as follows:)
	7		THE COURT:  All right, are both sides
8   ready to bring the jury back and resume with Dr. Clayton? 9		MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER:  Yes, sir, the
10   Defense is ready.
11		MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
12		THE COURT:  All right, bring the jury
13   back in, please.
15		(Whereupon, the jury
16			was returned to the
17			courtroom, and the
18			proceedings were
19			resumed on the record,
20			in open court, in the
21			presence and hearing
22			of the defendant,
23			as follows:)
25		THE COURT:  Let the record reflect
		Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is
	2	seated.
	3				Mr. Mulder.
	6			Q.	Dr. Clayton, you have been called here
	7	to testify as regards to Darlie Routier.  Do you know
	8	her?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Do you see her here in court on my
11	immediate left?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Have you had occasion to examine her?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	And has she been made available to you
16	as you required?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	Can you tell the jury approximately
19	how many times you have seen her?
20			A.	I have seen her for these -- this
21	evaluation approximately five or six times for over a
22	total of over 12 hours, probably about 12 and a half
23	hours total time that I have spoken with her in this type
24	of interview setting.
25			Q.	Is that relatively long or is it
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	longer than you usually take to examine and evaluate
	2	someone?
	3			A.	Yes, usually most evaluations are done
	4	within an hour to two-hour period.  On some other
	5	previous capital cases, I have talked with the defendant
	6	up to about four hours and usually it's between two to
	7	three different times.
	8			Q.	Okay.
	9			A.	But yes, I have spent more time.
10			Q.	Okay.  And, have you likewise been
11	given access to, for example, the 911 tape?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Okay.  Have you had access to, and do
14	you have a copy of the statement that she made to the
15	police on June the 8th of 1996?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	I'll ask you if you likewise have a
18	copy of the journal that contains a final entry on May
19	the 3rd of 1996 addressed to her three sons?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  That is the statement in which
22	she mentions ending it all or --
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Or the so-called suicide note?
25			A.	Yes.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Have you also had occasion to visit
	2	with family members of Darlie Routier's?
	3			A.	Yes, sir, I have.
	4			Q.	Now, Dr. Clayton, could you start with
	5	the first category that we discussed, and tell the jury,
	6	based on your examination and evaluation of Darlie
	7	Routier, whether or not she fits in the first category
	8	that we talked about that Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick
	9	defined on mothers who kill their children?
10			A.	Yes, the first category would be
11	battering mothers, and under Dr. Resnick's classification
12	accidental deaths, again, those are mothers who have
13	physically abused their children for a long time, and
14	then finally one incident of physical abuse, is fatal.
15				Based upon my interviews with Mrs.
16	Routier and her family members, and I guess all of the
17	other things you mentioned, there is no history of any
18	type of physical abuse.
19				There was no history of any type of
20	physical abuse found on autopsy, in fact, it's been
21	reported by not only Mrs. Routier, but her husband, her
22	mother-in-law, and her mother is --
24				MR. TOBY SHOOK::  Judge, I'll object
25	to hearsay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1				THE COURT:  Sustained, ma'am.  Now,
	2	Doctor, just testify as to what you know from your own
	3	personal knowledge.
	4				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, in
	5	forming her opinion, she can consider all that.
	6				THE COURT:  Oh, by all means there.
	7	Let's just rephrase your question the right way.
	8				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, you are
	9	doing fine, Doctor.  If you will just carry on.
10				THE WITNESS:  That Mrs. -- well, it's
11	my opinion, from those sources, that Mrs. Routier did not
12	even physically spank her children, on a regular basis,
13	maybe once or twice in their whole entire lives and that
14	she never used any kind of physical force, to any kind of
15	excess at all with her children in the history.
16			Q.	Okay.  So she doesn't fit in the
17	category 1 of Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick's categories?
18			A.	No.
19			Q.	Okay.  How about category 2, the
20	retaliating mother or the revengeful mother?
21			A.	Well, again, those are usually mothers
22	who are separated from their spouse, or find out their
23	husband or the baby's father is being in some way
24	unfaithful to them, and kills the children out of
25	revenge.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Again, it's my opinion, from all of my
	2	different interviews that Mrs. Routier and -- or Darlie
	3	and Darin Routier had a very healthy, strong, marriage;
	4	that they were very much in love with each other; that
	5	they had what I would consider a normal relationship, in
	6	that times they did argue, and maybe raised their voices,
	7	there is -- over different matters however, there again,
	8	there was a strong bond, and love between them.  And that
	9	there was, and I guess still is, no reason for any type
10	of retaliation or revenge-type killing.
11		        Q.	Dr. Clayton, Dr. Scott and Dr.
12	Resnick's third category, I would like to have you
13	discuss with the jury, is the -- under Dr. Scott the
14	mentally ill mother, and under Dr. Resnick the psychotic
15	mother.  Would you explain to the jury whether or not
16	that is applicable based on your examination and your
17	evaluation of Darlie Routier?
18		        A.	Again, I do not think it is
19	applicable.  It's my opinion that Mrs. Routier was very
20	much functional.  She was performing regular household
21	chores, she was not saying any bizarre statements, or
22	showing any type of bizarre behavior.  There was no
23	evidence that she had any type of psychosis prior to the
24	alleged offense.
25			And then, from hearing the 911 tape
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	again, that she is, I guess, performing -- or not
	2	performing, she is reacting in a very appropriate manner.
	3	You know, the distress, she is coherent, she is not
	4	talking about, you know, the devil or evil, or some sort
	5	of bizarre, psychotic delusion, that you would expect
	6	from a mother who had just killed their children in a
	7	psychotic state.
	8				And then, even after the events she
	9	was examined by other psychiatrists at the jail, and then
10	also by me, when I was functioning in my jail psychiatry
11	role, a few days after the arrest, and there has never
12	been any thought by any of these psychiatrists that she
13	had any evidence of any type of psychosis.
14				So, I do not think that she fits into
15	that category.
16			Q.	Okay.  And that would really be
17	covered by the postpartum psychosis?
18			A.	Yes.
19			Q.	What exactly is take, and what are
20	those -- I take it those are degrees?
21			A.	Yes, they kind of -- they have
22	actually, depending on the textbook that you read, they
23	usually are divided into about three categories.  One is
24	postpartum blues.
25			Q.	Is that also called baby blues?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes.  Um-hum.  (Witness nodding head
	2	affirmatively.)
	3			Q.	Okay.
	4			A.	And again, this usually happens within
	5	two or three days after delivery, up until like about
	6	three weeks, feeling just kind of down.  Again, usually
	7	these -- any type of postpartum problems usually happen
	8	with the first baby more than any other pregnancy.
	9				But again, it's usually somewhat --
10	it's very close to the time of the delivery.  It is more
11	of just kind of a period of dysphoria, that usually, you
12	know, resolves without any kind of treatment or anything.
13	They just start feeling better.
14			Q.	Just kind of moody?
15			A.	Yes.
16			Q.	And for no reason?
17			A.	Yes, but again, that is usually
18	within -- usually within the first month of the new
19	infant's birth.
20			Q.	Okay.
21			A.	And then the second category is
22	postpartum depression with major depression.  Again, this
23	is kind of when the blues linger on, and they become what
24	we psychiatrists would call majorly depressed, meaning
25	that their sleep is disrupted, even if the baby is not
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	disrupting their sleep, again it's usually very
	2	noticeable to family and friends.
	3		              Again, this usually happens -- most of
	4	these happen within the first three months of the birth
	5	of the baby.  Then again, oftentimes, it resolves by
	6	itself.  Some people -- some women do seek psychiatric
	7	help, and get put on some type of antidepressant
	8	medication.
	9		              The third category is the postpartum
10	psychosis, where over a period of time, lasting up to one
11	year, the mother can become frankly psychotic.  Usually
12	she progresses through the first two stages I told you
13	about, and then she starts becoming paranoid that, you
14	know, something is going to happen to the baby, or
15	somebody is going to hurt her, or she starts hearing
16	voices, she starts acting very bizarre.
17		              Usually families report that she quits
18	caring for herself or the baby, housework doesn't get
19	done.  Just regular, basic personal hygiene is totally
20	neglected, and these mothers, usually because there is an
21	infant in the home, and the family needs the mom there to
22	take care of the infant, but they usually come to the
23	attention of mental health people very quickly, because
24	of the high demands of caring for an infant, that if the
25	mother is not able to do so in the appropriate way,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	family usually bring the mother in, and she receives
	2	psychiatric treatment.  And that usually does require
	3	medication for it to resolve.
	4			Q.	Dr. Clayton, in the case of postpartum
	5	psychosis, in postpartum psychosis, that is severe
	6	enough, that it results in violence towards a child, is
	7	not the child generally to whom and against whom the
	8	violence is directed is the newborn?
	9			A.	Yes.
10			Q.	Is that not practically always true?
11			A.	Yes, that is, in I would say probably
12	from 90 to 95 percent of the time, is that it's focused
13	around the infant that has just been birthed by the
14	mother.
15			Q.	All right.  Doctor, the fourth
16	category would be the unwanted child category, it's the
17	same in both Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick's research?
18			A.	Yes, sir.  This is the category that
19	is the majority are unwanted-type pregnancies, wherein
20	the mother is usually teen-aged, there is no social
21	support, there -- from anybody.  They may resent the
22	child that -- or the children, and sometimes they are of
23	another -- by another father that -- or they have got a
24	boyfriend who doesn't want children and that sort of
25	thing.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Again, a majority of these children
	2	are killed by actual neglect.  Meaning that they are not
	3	properly fed, they don't -- you know, they may be vitamin
	4	deficient on autopsy and that they are actually on
	5	autopsy, the reason they have been found to be dead is
	6	because of either malnutrition or untreated medical
	7	illnesses that the mother has just ignored.  So, that is
	8	how the majority of these children die.
	9			The other ones that may not die
10	actually from the actual neglect do show symptoms of --
11	or evidence of neglect, such as unkept, dirty, not --
12	again the not being fed properly, that sort of thing.
13			So again, this is a very long -- I
14	guess or somewhat long process, in that the mother has
15	not wanted the child, and essentially has rejected the
16	child over a long period of time, and then culminates in
17	murdering the children or the child.
18		        Q.	And do you think that is applicable in
19	this situation?
20		        A.	No.  Again it's my medical opinion,
21	from my evaluation, that Darlie Routier was a very
22	devoted mother, she went the extra mile as far as her
23	devotion to her children.  She had a great amount of
24	social support.  Support for her when she needed, I
25	guess, breaks from the children and that sort of thing.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			That, again, there is -- my opinion is
	2	that there was no lover, or any reason why she needed to
	3	rid herself of the two younger children.
	4			Again, usually those type of murders
	5	are -- you don't just, I guess, murder one of the
	6	children, or some of them, it's usually the hole group of
	7	children if the mother wants to be childless.
	8			Or in the few situations, I guess,
	9	where a child has been born by one father, and the mother
10	might kill the children that have been born by the father
11	who she is no longer with, and just want to keep the baby
12	by her newer husband or newer father.
13			So, it's my opinion that she does not
14	fit in that category either.
15		        Q.	Okay.  Doctor, the fifth and last
16	category for Dr. Scott, would be the mercy killing that
17	is the one that correlates to the altruistic for Dr.
18	Resnick, could you tell the jury, based on your
19	examination and evaluation of Darlie Routier, whether or
20	not you feel that is applicable to her situation?
21		        A.	Well, obviously neither one of the two
22	children had any type of fatal or significant,
23	long-standing chronic illness, where she would have felt
24	that she needed to relieve their pain or suffering.
25			I do not think at the time, that she
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	was suicidal.  I think even when she contemplated or
	2	thought about committing suicide, in May, that the note
	3	showed -- that she wrote, or part of the note because she
	4	stopped before she finished it.  It showed a concern and
	5	love for her boys, and a plan that she -- the boys were
	6	going to be taken care of and would live on without her.
	7	There was no evidence that she felt like they could not
	8	survive without her, and there would be no one to care of
	9	them, and that sort of thing.  But all in all, I don't
10	think that she was suicidal at the time of the offense,
11	and I don't think that she killed the two boys and then
12	was trying to kill herself.
13		              In the event where a mother kills her
14	children and then kills herself, it's very rare,
15	especially for women, to stab themselves as a method of
16	suicide.  It's more likely some sort of asphyxiation,
17	even such as putting all of the kids in the car, and
18	putting them in the garage, and, you know, having carbon
19	monoxide kill everyone of them, including the mother, or
20	some type of gassing again in the home, or some type of
21	overdose, and if there is going to be a violent death,
22	it's usually a gun used.
23		              But women, very rarely, kill
24	themselves with a knife.  In fact, most -- in the
25	American culture, it's very rare, I guess, maybe common
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	with Japanese soldiers, but it's very rare for a woman to
	2	try to kill herself with a knife.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Doctor, that -- we have gone
	4	through Dr. Scott's categories, and Dr. Resnick has one
	5	more category, and that is the --
	6			A.	Neonaticide.
	7			Q.	Yes, neonaticide.  And, can you tell
	8	us whether or not that is applicable to this situation?
	9			A.	Well, obviously it's not, because, she
10	did not -- again that is the category that Dr. Resnick
11	described, in that mothers who kill their infant within
12	24 hours of being born.
13				So obviously, by the fact that the
14	offense that the baby that she had was not harmed, and
15	was much older than -- all of the children were much
16	older than 24 hours old.
17			Q.	Okay.  Dr. Clayton, based on your 12
18	plus hours of examination and evaluation of Darlie
19	Routier, and based on your examination and evaluation of
20	her family members, and the review of the matters that
21	you have received, do you feel that Darlie Routier was
22	being truthful with you when you examined her?
23			A.	Yes, I do.
24			Q.	Okay.   Now, Dr. Clayton, you are
25	aware that Darlie Routier was questioned by the Rowlett
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Police Department on June 6th of 1996, shortly after she
	2	came out of surgery for the injuries that she had
	3	sustained?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	And had been given, as I recall, some
	6	Demerol and some Phenergan?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	She was questioned on other occasions
	9	again, on June 8th of 1996, and again on June 10th of
10	1996, while she was under sedation and under medication.
11				Can you, as a psychiatrist, tell the
12	jury what effect that medication and sedation and the
13	medications that I have described to you would have on
14	her?
15			A.	Yes, those medications, the Demerol to
16	Phenergan then later on the other painkillers, and,
17	benzodiazepine, or sedatives that she was being given,
18	over that time period, have the effect on a person to
19	disinhibit them, much like, somewhat like alcohol.
20				Meaning that they are almost in some
21	cases like a truth serum.  There is a fairly famous
22	psychiatric-type interview, called an Amytal interview,
23	where a person is actually given a medication, an IV,
24	that is very short acting, a barbiturate, and, they are
25	asked questions and it is found that people that are
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	lying, their inhibitions are dropped and they tell the
	2	truth.
	3				So, if someone is making up something,
	4	they are -- because they are essentially somewhat
	5	intoxicated by the medication, their ability to lie is
	6	decreased and they more often tell the truth.
	7				By the fact that Mrs. Routier was on
	8	these medications over this time period, and was
	9	questioned extensively, if she were lying, it would be,
10	usually at that point, under those conditions, where she
11	would -- where the truth would come out.  Meaning that,
12	if she had done this she would have confessed, that sort
13	of thing.  By the fact that she was on these medications
14	and did not change her story within any amount of, you
15	know, I did it, versus I didn't, it's my medical opinion
16	that she was being truthful.
17			Q.	When she denied it?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Okay.  A good police strategy is to
20	question someone when they come out of surgery, isn't it?
21			A.	Yes, or when they are under some type
22	of sedating-type medication, yes.
23			Q.	Okay.  Doctor, can you tell the jury
24	whether or not you are familiar with the term psychic
25	numbing?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        A.	Yes, I am.
	2		        Q.	All right.  And will you tell the jury
	3	what that is?
	4		        A.	Well, it's a term that has been coined
	5	by some psychiatrists, also it's called -- there is a
	6	thing or another phrase call psychic shock, and it's used
	7	to describe someone's emotional lessness or their
	8	decrease in emotional reactivity when they have witnessed
	9	some sort of traumatic, tragic event.
10			Either whether they have been
11	assaulted or attacked, or they have witnessed something.
12	There is -- essentially their body may not be in shock,
13	but their emotional reactivity is somewhat decreased.  It
14	may fluctuate, meaning that they may kind of go in and
15	out.
16			With different people it's different,
17	but it's something that is recorded in the literature and
18	part of any kind of traumatic stress that people again
19	may, to others seem very cold and not really having any
20	emotions over it, whereas what is probably happened is
21	because of the trauma, on -- to use the psychiatric term,
22	ego, their mind has kind of blocked it off and separated
23	it out, that the emotions from the event.  And at times
24	they can appear very emotionless and essentially just be
25	in a shock kind of state.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Doctor -- Dr. Clayton, are you
	2	familiar with the grieving process that went on with
	3	Darlie Routier, and with grieving in general?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.
	5			Q.	Okay.  And, can you express to the
	6	jury whether or not you feel her grieving was appropriate
	7	or inappropriate given the circumstances?
	8			A.	I feel like her grieving was
	9	appropriate.
10			Q.	Okay.  Do people grieve in different
11	ways?
12			A.	Yes, sir, grieving is a very
13	individual response.  I guess I wouldn't -- if I were
14	going to label grieving I wouldn't label grieving either
15	appropriate or inappropriate, because who is to say?
16	Every one is different.  We all handle things in
17	different ways.
18				If I were going to categorize it, I
19	would categorize it to healthy and unhealthy grieving.
20	Some people are very stoic and don't elicit a lot of
21	emotion, and more private people, sometimes that is
22	cultural, sometimes it's individual.
23				Other people are more, I guess loud,
24	wailing and sobbing, you know, kind of throw their body
25	over the caskets and that type of grieving.  And again,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	it's somewhat of an individual and somewhat of a cultural
	2	response.
	3				Some people, kind of, I guess what I
	4	would call wax and wane, meaning that at some points they
	5	are very in touch with grieving and emotion, and at other
	6	points they aren't.  Again, I think some of that has to
	7	do with medication, when -- you know, when someone is
	8	very, very upset, the family and friends respond, and
	9	again, it's my opinion that this is what happened in
10	Darlie's case, is to give her medication to sedate her.
11	Some that wasn't prescribed for her, and probably was
12	given in too strong of doses, where it can almost make
13	someone zombie-ish (sic) like because they are so
14	sedated.
15				Again, I think from my evaluation that
16	Mrs. Routier's grieving was within normal grieving and
17	appropriate.
18			Q.	So it was healthy?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	Okay.  Dr. Clayton, are you familiar
21	with the term traumatic amnesia?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	And what is that, and how does that
24	apply based on your examination and evaluation of Darlie
25	Routier?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        A.	Again, that is a term that is used in
	2	various psychiatric textbooks.  To describe when someone
	3	is a victim or witnesses something very traumatic.  I
	4	guess, psychicly, and for the most part they have no
	5	memory of the event.
	6			I guess in literature there is
	7	several -- you know, someone being shot at point blank
	8	range, and not remembering what happened right before, or
	9	someone being raped, and basically having no memory of
10	it.  It is basically a type of disassociation where the
11	person walls off the memory in another spot in their
12	brain and has no connection.
13			Again, there is -- at times, sometimes
14	these memories can later resurface.  Again, these are
15	kind of -- a lot of times you are seeing this with the
16	sexual abuse kind of stuff.  People literally don't
17	remember things, and then later on, bits and pieces kind
18	of come back.
19			I believe that this is probably the
20	case in Mrs. Routier's accounting of the events.
21			And, lack of, I guess, consistent
22	memory throughout the whole offense.
23			Again, it's -- I wouldn't say, I guess
24	it's not common, because most people don't go through
25	hopefully those kind of traumatic events that these other
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	individuals have, but within victims of traumatic events,
	2	there are most definitely memory lapses that there is no
	3	real explanation for.
	4			Q.	And that is not unusual?
	5			A.	No, not with victims of traumatic
	6	events.
	7			Q.	Dr. Clayton, I believe you have
	8	already stated that you did not think that Darlie Routier
	9	was suicidal on May the 3rd of 1996, despite any entry in
10	her journal?
11			A.	Yes.  I guess when I say suicidal, and
12	when I am dealing with it with people and patients,
13	meaning everyone, I think, or most people have thought of
14	what would it be like to just have it all over, or I
15	would like to go to sleep and not wake up, and just be
16	away from here.
17				I think that is very different, and I
18	don't consider that suicidal versus someone who has a
19	plan, is going to -- they, are for sure going to act on
20	it, and they usually do not tell family members.  They
21	are secretive because they want their plans to be
22	successful.  From my evaluation of Mrs. Routier, it's my
23	opinion that she had suicidal ideation.
24			I think it was more of a cry for attention
25	and help from her husband.  She did not complete the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	note.  She called her husband and told him how bad she
	2	was feeling.  Again, these are not the acts of someone
	3	who was really going to kill themselves.  It's more of
	4	someone, I want you to realize how bad I am feeling and
	5	how I need some help.
	6				I think that was the case in -- with
	7	Mrs. Routier on May the 3rd.
	8			Q.	And I believe you said in three or
	9	four days, she had the menstrual cycle and things perked
10	up?
11			A.	Yes.  And again, I think hormonally
12	she was very vulnerable to feeling kind of anxious and
13	dysphoric, and that she would have been classified as
14	P.M.S.  And then also, the fact that she had not had a
15	menstrual cycle, since over a year, she had not had one
16	since the birth of her baby.
17				So, by the accounts that she -- once
18	she had, you know, her period, that she felt much better,
19	and I also think that not only that, but just the fact
20	that her husband acknowledged that she was having stress,
21	and responded appropriately, and came home and the
22	situation was remedied.
23			Q.	Well, three boys could be a stressful
24	situation for any mother, couldn't it?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	And that is not unusual, is it?
	2			A.	No, sir.  I think that most mothers
	3	and especially mothers that stay at home with their
	4	children, either full time or most of the time, every now
	5	and then, you know, tell their husbands or, you know,
	6	other family members --
	7			Q.   "I need a break."
	8			A.   "I need a break.  Help me out."  And I
	9	think that is very common.  People just may do it in
10	different ways.
11			Q.	Sure.  Dr. Clayton, are you familiar
12	with the prayer service at the cemetery, and the birthday
13	party or celebration that followed that?  Are you
14	familiar with that?
15			A.	Yes, sir, I am.
16			Q.	Okay.  And, could you give us your
17	professional opinion as to whether or not that was
18	appropriate based on your examination and evaluation of
19	Darlie Routier?
20			A.	Well, again, I don't think that I can
21	necessarily say what is appropriate or inappropriate with
22	any family that is grieving over someone that has died.
23	I think it is in the realm of normal grieving, and thus
24	in that way, I guess it would be appropriate, in that
25	there was a prayer service.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		              Mrs. -- Darlie was tearful, her mother
	2	essentially told her that she needed to stop crying
	3	because of the birthday party and the neighborhood
	4	children being present after the prayer service and that
	5	the children were already fearful and having nightmares.
	6	And that this was to be a celebration, it was to reassure
	7	the children that the little boys were with God, and in
	8	Christian cultures, Christianity, in and of itself, talks
	9	about the resurrection, and how someone is better off,
10	once they are dead, in that they are with the Lord, and
11	that they are no longer here on the earth.  And the
12	Routiers were of the Christian faith, and I think they
13	were trying to, I guess, portray this to the other
14	children.  And also, that it was not planned, the party,
15	or the way it was -- the Silly String and the party was
16	not planned by Mrs. Routier, it was her younger sister
17	who bought the Silly String and wanted to kind of --
18	basically, I think the family in some ways were acting in
19	kind of hysterical, almost a pathetic way in acting like
20	the two children were not dead.  And trying to almost, I
21	guess, deny the fact that they were dead, in a way, and I
22	think especially what her younger sisters were trying to
23	do was that.
24		              Again, different cultures have, you
25	know, grief or have funerals in different ways.  What
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	comes to mind is the wakes, or the Irish-Catholic type
	2	wakes, where people actually have parties, and are
	3	drinking and partying around the body of someone in a
	4	casket.
	5			And so, I think different cultures and
	6	different people grieve in different ways, and personally
	7	I don't feel like any -- no one can say what is
	8	appropriate or not appropriate for a family grieving over
	9	someone.
10		        Q.	Okay.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Thank you.  Dr.
13	Clayton.  One of the prosecutors will have some questions
14	for you.
15			THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Shook.
16			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Thank you, Judge.
22		        Q.	Dr. Clayton, I believe the first time
23	you met Mrs. Routier was part of your regular duties, in
24	the Dallas County jail, when you see people that have
25	been put in isolation; is that right?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Okay.  And, the time you saw her I
	3	believe was back on June the 20th of 1996?
	4			A.	Yes, sir.  I mean, I don't have those
	5	notes, but, I think you do.
	6			Q.	Okay.  I think I have got a copy of
	7	them here.
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	Okay.
10			A.	And I know we have gone over those
11	notes, and yes, I would say that is the date.  It was
12	just a few days after her arrest at some point.
13			Q.	Okay.
15				BY MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Mark this, please.
17				(Whereupon the next exhibit was
18				 marked for identification as
19				 State's Exhibit No. 145.)
22			Q.	Dr. Clayton, let me show you some
23	copies, I believe, of the Dallas County Medical Records,
24	marked as State's Exhibit No. 145, and if you could look
25	through those and see if you recognize those as being
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	records kept by the jail in regards to Darlie Routier?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	And I believe some of your notations
	4	will be in there, is that right?
	5			A.	Yes, it looks like the first one was
	6	on 6-20-96.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Let me see it just a second.
	8	I'll give it back to you in a minute.
10				BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:  Your Honor, at
11	this time we will offer State's Exhibit 145.
12				THE COURT:  Any objection?
13				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, I
14	don't think she is the person who can sponsor some Dallas
15	County jail medical record.
16				THE COURT:  Well, she said --
19			Q.	You recognize those, don't you, Dr.
20	Clayton?
21			A.	Well, I mean, I don't know if that is
22	the full one.  I can recognize my writings on that.
24				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All right.  Okay.
25	I am not finished with it, but --
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  Any objection?
	2			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, I
	3	don't know.  I have not read it.  I would like to see it
	4	first, if the Court doesn't mind.
	5			THE COURT:  All right.  Well, let Mr.
	6	Mulder read it.
	7			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, this is a
	8	20 page deal that has many entries in different
	9	handwritings.
10			THE COURT:  Well, I think this is the
11	one that the Doctor said she reviewed; is that correct?
12	You reviewed this document; is that correct?
13			THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't know
14	specifically if that is the one.
15			THE COURT:  Well, perhaps you might
16	want to look at it and see if that is the one that you
17	reviewed.
18			Mr. Shook, hand it to her.
19			THE WITNESS:  But I have reviewed her
20	medical records.  They are actually in the jail medical
21	record file, they are on blue paper.
22			THE COURT:  I understand, I think that
23	would be --
24			THE WITNESS:  And they are the
25	physicians notes.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Shook.
	2			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Do you want me to
	3	show it to her?
	4			THE COURT:  Just show it to her again.
	5			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, we want to
	6	see it again.
	7			THE COURT:  Oh, by all means.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, I
	9	just hate to sit here for 20 minutes just to read this
10	thing.
11			THE COURT:  Well, you know, I have
12	nothing better to do.  I might as well sit here.
13			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All right.
14			THE COURT:  I am very comfortable, and
15	I don't mind waiting.
16			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, it's fine
17	with me, if it's all right with you.
18			THE COURT:  All right.  Very fine.
19			THE WITNESS:  Do you want me --
20			I haven't specifically -- there are
21	some notes in here that wouldn't have been on the blue
22	paper, they would have been on another color paper
23	because they are not on the physicians.
24			THE COURT:  But you recognize that as
25	a document that you have reviewed?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE WITNESS:  Well, I have not
	2	reviewed the ones that are not on the blue paper, but the
	3	ones -- I did recognize my writing.
	4			THE COURT:  All right.  That is fine.
	5	Anything else?  Any objection now?
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, Judge.  I
	7	would still like to read it, if the Court wouldn't mind.
	8			THE COURT:  All right.  Well, let Mr.
	9	Mulder continue to perusing the documents.
10			THE WITNESS:  Well, let me just be
11	sure that they have pretty much gotten all my notes.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, that
13	happens to be a number of different people's handwriting
14	on there.
15			THE COURT:  I understand that.  Thank
16	you.  All right.
17			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  And, may I just
18	take the witness on voir dire and ask her something?
19			THE COURT:  You may.
22		             VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
25		        Q.	Did you consider what is on these --
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	what is contained in these records in forming your
	2	evaluation and opinions?
	3		        A.    No, we didn't discuss any -- I was
	4	seeing her under the guise of being the jail
	5	psychiatrist.  At that point I was -- I see -- the way it
	6	works in the Dallas County jail is I see the women that
	7	are in the north tower.  I see the women that are on
	8	suicide, specifically because of the clothing issues they
	9	are on paper drapes and that sort of thing.
10		              So, I was seeing her because when
11	someone is in a high profile case they are automatically
12	placed on suicide precautions.  And I was not there, I
13	guess, the first day she was arrested, but then I was --
14	and two other male psychiatrists saw her, I guess, in
15	some sort of hold-over cell or something, and then once
16	she was transferred I saw her.
17		              And it's rules by the sergeant that
18	women that are housed in a single cell in the Dallas
19	County jail be seen by the psychiatrist every two weeks,
20	every one to two weeks.  And so, I was, at that point
21	just basically checking in with her.  I guess obviously,
22	my notes talk about how she didn't appear psychotic and
23	the other psychiatrist thought she was not psychotic, so
24	I guess in some sense, I did possibly use -- not those
25	notes, but just some of my first impressions.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			But for the most part, I mean, in all
	2	I did not interview her anything about her childhood, or
	3	her -- the events or anything.  It's basically a here and
	4	now, how are you doing, I talk to these inmates about 30
	5	seconds to a minute.  Because, we go along and they open
	6	up their little door, their feeder port, and I talk to
	7	them through the door with the jailer right there.  So,
	8	it's basically just:  How are you doing?  Are you
	9	sleeping?  Are you suicidal?
10			Again, about a minute interview
11	because I am writing the whole time, and then I move on
12	to the next one, and that was all that those assessments
13	consisted of.
14		        Q.	Okay.  But it is the policy of the
15	Sheriff's office, the policy of Sheriff Bowles of Dallas
16	County to put someone who comes in in a high profile case
17	on a suicide watch?
18		        A.	Yes, sir, that is usually what
19	happens.
20		        Q.	It doesn't make any difference whether
21	it is a man or a woman.
23			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, are we going
24	back to direct, or --
25			THE COURT:  Well, let's authenticate
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	Exhibit 145.  I believe the witness has stated that --
	2	Dr. Clayton has said that she did review some pages in
	3	there, and her signature or notes appear thereon; is that
	4	correct, Doctor?
	5			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, that's
	6	correct.
	7			THE COURT:  Okay.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, I
	9	obviously had -- I don't have any objections to any
10	entries that she has made.
11			THE COURT:  Well, fine.  Then State's
12	Exhibit 145, the entries made by this witness are
13	admitted.  We will excise the other portions that she
14	cannot recognize.
16			(Whereupon, the above
17				mentioned item was
18				received in evidence
19				as State's Exhibit No. 145,
20				for all purposes
21				after which time,
22				the proceedings were
23				resumed on the record,
24				as follows:)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well -- or that
	2	she did not author.
	3			THE COURT:  Did not author, that's
	4	correct.  I think that the pages that her notes appear
	5	on, they are in.  The rest of it is out until it's
	6	authenticated.  Thank you.  Let's excise those pages and
	7	get on with the trial.
	8			And since that document will
	9	eventually be excised.  You will question Dr. Clayton
10	only on those portions of that exhibit that she has
11	personally reviewed, and I believe your signature or some
12	note of recognition appears on them.  Okay?
13			THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
14			THE COURT:  Thank you.
17		          CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed)
20		        Q.	Okay.  Thank you.  So the first time
21	you saw the defendant would be on the 20th of June of
22	'96; is that right, Doctor?
23		        A.	Yes, sir.
24		        Q.	Okay.  And that was part of your --
25	part of your duties as part of your employment with the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	Dallas County jail system; is that right?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  And, when was it that you
	4	became hired as an expert in this case for the defense?
	5			A.	I think I was contacted sometime
	6	around the first of November.
	7			Q.	Okay.  Who contacted you?
	8			A.	Mr. Mulder's paralegal, Carol.
	9			Q.	Okay.  And, did they -- what were you
10	asked to do at that time?
11			A.	I was asked to do a psychiatric
12	evaluation on Mrs. Routier.
13			Q.	Okay.  Any particular type of
14	psychiatric evaluation?
15			A.	No.
16			Q.	Okay.  I mean, were any goals told to
17	look for this, or look for that, and that kind of thing?
18			A.	No, he just --  Carol just said that
19	they wanted to hire me to do a psychiatric evaluation.
20	Then I -- and I would have to look at my notes at what
21	day, but I flew down to Kerrville, and when I met Mr.
22	Mulder for the first time, he asked me just to go in and
23	interview her, and that was basically all he said, and
24	that was on 11-15-96.
25			Q.	How long was that interview?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	That interview was two and a half
	2	hours.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Who was present during that
	4	interview?
	5			A.	Just Darlie and I.
	6			Q.	Was Mr. Mulder ever in there in the
	7	interview?
	8			A.	No, it's my -- I don't, when I do a
	9	psychiatric evaluation of someone, in either a criminal
10	or a civil matter, I just want the person and me in the
11	room.
12				I did, essentially, tell her about her
13	rights and told her that I would tell the truth about
14	what happened in our interview.
15			Q.	Okay.  Now, so you have interviewed
16	her for a total of 12 hours; is that right?
17			A.	Well, actually I think 12 and a fourth
18	to 12 and a half.
19			Q.	Okay.  And you reviewed the 911 tape?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	And, her voluntary statement, I
22	believe; is that right?
23			A.	Yes, sir.
24			Q.	Okay.  What other materials have you
25	reviewed?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	The diary.
	2			Q.	Okay.
	3			A.	Which included the partially finished
	4	note --
	5			Q.	Right.
	6			A.	The suicide note.
	7			Q.	Right.
	8			A.	That is all.
	9			Q.	Okay.  Have you reviewed any video
10	tapes?
11			A.	Not specifically.  When -- I guess
12	when the video tape of the --
13			Q.	Of the Silly String party?
14			A.	Yes, I caught part of that just in
15	watching the nightly news.
16			Q.	Okay.
17			A.	I didn't even see all of that.
18			Q.	Okay.  So you have only -- the only
19	part of the Silly String tape you have seen, is what part
20	of it that might have been shown on T.V.?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	Okay.  And, you have interviewed some
23	people besides Darlie; is that right?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	Who was that?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	I interviewed her mother-in-law, Mrs.
	2	Routier, for about an hour and a half.  I interviewed her
	3	mother, Mrs. Darlie Kee, for approximately three hours.
	4	I interviewed her husband, Darin, for approximately three
	5	and a half hours.
	6			Q.	Okay.  Is that all of the people you
	7	have interviewed?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	Any friends, have you interviewed any
10	friends?
11			A.	No.
12			Q.	Okay.  But that is the sum total of
13	people you have interviewed in coming here?
14			A.	Yes.  I was told by Mr. Mulder and the
15	Routier family, that they would make anybody and anything
16	I wanted available, or any other things, and I did not
17	feel like, after talking to all of the above people I
18	have already talked about, I didn't feel like I needed to
19	talk to more friends and family members.
20			Q.	Okay.  Now your opinions, I guess,
21	that you have given here today, well, I guess like you
22	would at any time, are only as good as the accuracy of
23	the information you are given; is that right?
24			A.	Well, I guess -- no, in that, I guess
25	somewhat in part, but also if someone is sitting there
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	lying to me, and I get my opinion from what I see, and
	2	observe and hear, whether they are being truthful or not.
	3				So in that sense, someone I can have
	4	an opinion that is not -- it's based on whether -- what
	5	the person is telling me is accurate or not.
	6			Q.	Well, if your other information is
	7	inaccurate, your opinion might be inaccurate?
	8			A.	I'm sorry, could you --
	9			Q.	Are you saying that if you are given a
10	bunch of inaccurate information, you are going to have
11	good opinions?
12			A.	Well, again, what I am saying is part
13	of what I was trained to do, was to assess whether
14	someone is telling the truth or not.  So, in that sense,
15	I don't need to -- you know, someone can sit there and be
16	telling me inaccurate information and, I can still make a
17	valid assessment.
18			Q.	Are you always going to know when they
19	are telling you the truth?
20			A.	I don't think any person can know 100
21	percent of the time, but I think I am within reasonable,
22	medical certainty.
23			Q.	And you believe Darlie Routier told
24	you the truth?
25			A.	Yes, I do.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  And how about the other people
	2	you interviewed?  Did you believe they were telling you
	3	the truth?  Darin Routier?
	4			A.	I believe that -- yes, that he was
	5	telling the truth.
	6			Q.	Okay.  Would you agree, Dr. Clayton,
	7	that the more information you have, the more accurate
	8	your opinion can be?
	9			A.	Again, I felt like I had enough
10	information for my opinion to be accurate.
11			Q.	I know you felt that you had enough,
12	but would you agree that the more information you have,
13	the more accurate your opinion can be?
14			A.	What are you -- as far as --
15			Q.	It's kind of a general statement.  I'm
16	not trying to trick you or anything.
17			A.	Well --
18			Q.	Wouldn't you agree that it is good to
19	have as much information as possible when you are forming
20	an opinion?
21			A.	Yes.
22			Q.	Okay.  And so, the more information
23	you get, usually the better your opinion would be, the
24	more accurate it could be?
25			A.	Yes, that could be the case.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Now, how many people -- what
	2	exactly is wrong with Mrs. Routier?  What condition is it
	3	that she has?  Is it traumatic amnesia?
	4			A.	Well, I said that it's my opinion that
	5	she has traumatic amnesia for the events.
	6			Q.	Okay.  And, how many times have you
	7	treated someone that has this traumatic amnesia?
	8			A.	I guess I would say I have treated
	9	probably, again, 5 to 10 cases, but again, in that sense
10	the goal of treatment is not necessarily to bring back
11	the memory.  Oh, I would say probably 10 plus cases.  I
12	have evaluated people or observed that they have had that
13	probably in about the same amount.
14			Q.	Okay.  And, how many murder defendants
15	have you evaluated that have traumatic amnesia or claimed
16	to have had traumatic amnesia?
17			A.	Probably out of that 10 about 5 to 7,
18	for some -- again, it's -- there's spots of memory loss,
19	for the events.
20			Q.	Okay.  Now---
21			A.	I guess you said murder victims?
22			Q.	No, I said people accused of murder?
23			A.	Yes.
24			Q.	Okay.  Looking at it from Mrs.
25	Routier's point of view, you are talking about a victim
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	that would have traumatic amnesia?  Is that right?
	2			A.	Yes, sir.
	3			Q.	It can cut both ways, can't it?
	4	Murderers can have traumatic amnesia also?
	5			A.	Yes, they can.
	6			Q.	Okay.  A person can commit murder, and
	7	just won't remember what they did?
	8			A.	Yes, I guess in my experience of
	9	interviewing murderers that is most predominantly not the
10	case.
11			Q.	Right, in fact, I guess you talked
12	about it, what you have to be careful with as a
13	psychiatrist in this situation where someone that is
14	accused of a crime, is that -- I believe your term for it
15	malingering; is that right?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	Basically in plain English, that means
18	people will lie to you to try to get out of something?
19			A.	Yes, sir.
20			Q.	Okay.  Fake a condition?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	Lie about their symptoms, that kind of
23	thing?
24			A.	Yes, sir, people try to do that.
25			Q.	And in this type of situation, you
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	have to be extremely careful of people doing that, don't
	2	you?
	3			A.	In what type of situation?
	4			Q.	Well, in a situation where a person is
	5	charged with a crime and --
	6			A.	Yes, sir.
	7			Q.	Okay.
	8			A.	That is the reason I did the forensic
	9	fellowship and had the extra training, was to be able to
10	assess that.
11			Q.	Okay.  Now, let me ask you this, is
12	her traumatic amnesia, is that part of what y'all believe
13	some of the disorders y'all go over -- well, let me ask
14	you this:  This is DSM-IV, which is the book y'all use in
15	talking about mental disorders and that sort of thing;
16	right?
17			A.	Yes, it's used in classification of
18	mental disorders and for filing insurance claims, and
19	that sort of thing.
20			Q.	Is that anywhere in here?  Traumatic
21	amnesia?
22			A.	I don't think it's listed as a
23	diagnosis in and of itself.  I think it's under -- they
24	talk about it some under post-traumatic stress disorder.
25			Q.	Okay.  It can be part of
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	post-traumatic stress disorder?
	2			A.	Yes it can.
	3			Q.	And, in your opinion, is Darlie
	4	Routier suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder?
	5			A.	Again, I haven't -- I think she had
	6	some of the symptoms.  She is not -- because of her
	7	incarceration, she is not -- she is kind of somewhat
	8	removed from real life in order to meet the criteria of
	9	post-traumatic stress disorder, but yes, I do think she
10	meets some of qualifications.
11			Q.	Does your training tell you that in
12	situations where -- well, I think it's as far as
13	malingering goes, y'all are trained that in situations
14	where a lawyer refers the client to you, you have to be
15	extra careful about malingering or lying; is that right?
16			A.	That is the case.
17			Q.	Okay.  And any time a person has a
18	motive, they are under some legal accusation, obviously,
19	you want to be careful of that?
20			A.	Yes, I am very careful.
21			Q.	And obviously, the more serious the
22	legal accusation the more motive there is for a person to
23	possibly want to get out of it; is that right?
24			A.	Yes.
25			Q.	Okay.  Now, have you talked to the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	defendant about what she does remember about what
	2	happened that night?
	3			A.	Yes, sir.
	4			Q.	Okay.  What has she told you?
	5			A.	Again, it pretty much -- I have talked
	6	to her on several different occasions about it.
	7			Q.	You have gone over this more than once
	8	with her?
	9			A.	Yes, sir.
10			Q.	Okay.
11			A.	Her descriptions of the events follow,
12	but with more detail, her -- the written statement that
13	she gave to the Rowlett detectives.  I mean, do you want
14	me to just go through that, or --
15			Q.	You are saying that the statement she
16	gave to Rowlett was more detailed than what she told you?
17			A.	No, no, I went over in very minute
18	details.
19			Q.	Just tell us what she remembers about
20	that night, please?
21			A.	Do you want me to start with when, in
22	the evening?
23			Q.	Well, I guess the evening hours when
24	the family got together there.
25			A.	Okay.  Because we kind of -- the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	way -- the way it worked is she -- she first, again, that
	2	is one of the techniques that you start at different
	3	places in the events, in the sequence of events because,
	4	it's harder if someone is lying for them to lie out
	5	sequence.
	6			Q.	Right.
	7			A.	So on my first interview, we started
	8	actually when she starts having memories of the offense.
	9	And so, could I start there?  And then later --
10			Q.	Yes, go ahead.
11			A.	Then later, I had her go back to talk
12	about what led up to that.
13			Q.	Well, the best way you feel that you
14	can explain it to the jury, you go that way.
15			A.	She talks about hearing and feeling, I
16	guess Damon, on her right shoulder, as she was lying on
17	the couch.  She saw a man and stood up and saw him run
18	into -- kind of followed him into the kitchen.
19				She said she put her arm on Damon's --
20	around Damon, and -- or on his chest, and then it dawned
21	that the lights were turned off.  And, she describes
22	going over to the island, I guess, in the kitchen, and
23	seeing a knife lying on the floor.  Kind of in that, she
24	also describes not really knowing what happened.  She
25	kind of felt like her gown, when she woke up, was up to
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	her waist, but she wasn't sure if that was actually true
	2	or not.
	3		              She said that Damon -- she kind of --
	4	she pushed him up against the wall, she ran over and
	5	grabbed the knife.  And at that point, she realized that
	6	there was blood on her night gown.  She saw blood kind of
	7	dripping down.  She said solid blood.  And she put the
	8	knife on the counter, and she looked across the room,
	9	because now she had turned on the light and she saw
10	Devon, I guess who was laying over, back in the living
11	room, and he had no shirt on.  And she said that she saw
12	that his eyes were completely open, and he wasn't moving,
13	and she saw, one wound and her mind started -- she
14	describes it as her mind started spinning, she kind of
15	was running around, she describes it as running all
16	around.  Didn't feel anything.
17		              She looked at the other little boy,
18	Damon, and he was standing there looking at her, and she
19	said there was nothing on the front, so she turned him
20	around and that is when she saw the stab wounds through
21	his shirt.  And she told him to lay down, and said hang
22	on, and she said, that the last thing he said to her was,
23	"Okay, Mommy."
24		              She runs to the hall, yelling for her
25	husband.  She was just screaming at that point.  He comes
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	down running down the stairs, and he had his jeans on.
	2	He says he had his glasses on, but she didn't report
	3	that, she wasn't -- she didn't remember the glasses.
	4			She said that was, that, "Okay,
	5	Mommy."  Was the last thing that Damon said to her.
	6			She said that she ran -- they ran
	7	through the hallway together, and then, that he went to
	8	Devon, and she grabbed the phone to the right and called
	9	911, and she had the phone I guess it was a portable
10	phone and she had it on her shoulder.  And she also
11	grabbed a handful of towels, and went over and started
12	wetting them as she was talking to the 911 operator.
13			I had asked her kind of specifically
14	why wetting towels, and she thought that, in retrospect,
15	she said she wasn't conscious of it at the time, but she
16	thought that she had seen something like that on one of
17	the 911, or emergency shows that they have.
18			So, she said that she wasn't -- had no
19	training in, first aid or CPR but Darin did.  And so, she
20	grabbed the towels, and that is when she saw, in some
21	mirror -- she was running somewhere, and she still had
22	the phone, I guess, she describes talking to 911, and she
23	saw her neck for the first time, and said something like,
24	"Oh my God, he got my neck."
25			And then she runs in the living room,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	and starts putting the towel on Damon's back and Devon
	2	(sic) is giving CPR.  She reported kind of thinking, at
	3	that point, that she didn't know what to do, she didn't
	4	know any kind of first aid like Darin did.
	5			And, she said she walked back, she
	6	laid the towels down and then walked back to Damon, and
	7	then she was kind of running around, "I don't know CPR, I
	8	felt helpless."
	9			Then she ran to the door, and she
10	remembered her friend Karen, I guess, who is a nurse, and
11	she screamed for the neighbor.  She said she remembers
12	talking to the 911, and again this is something that most
13	traumatic victims will tell you, is that it seems like it
14	takes forever for the emergency help to get there, and
15	she told me that she goes, "I thought, what is taking
16	them so long," in that help wasn't arriving quick enough.
17			She states that she remembers seeing
18	the vacuum cleaner, seeing the knife again.  And she said
19	something about the 911 operator was telling her, you
20	know, "Don't touch anything."  And then her response was
21	something like, "I have already touched the knife."  And
22	she was crying to her husband, and talking to him about
23	that she shouldn't have touched the knife, they told me
24	not to touch it.
25			She is crying and screaming she says,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	and, I guess, thinking and saying my babies are dead, she
	2	said that -- Darin said there was no pulse after working
	3	on, I guess, Damon.
	4			She said, then an officer got there,
	5	and he just walked in, and he looked scared and did not
	6	move, he just kind of stood there, she said.  He didn't
	7	do anything.
	8			She describes then other people
	9	started kind of coming in, and talking and she couldn't
10	think.  She describes feeling dizzy, that she couldn't
11	get her breath, that she felt like she was dizzy.  And
12	the officer said:  "Where did he go?"  And she, I guess,
13	told the officer, "Out that door."  She said that the
14	officer didn't go out there.
15			And then she said the two officers
16	went to the kitchen and then the paramedic comes in.  She
17	remembers seeing -- she described remembering -- she said
18	that the police said that Karen wasn't in the house, but
19	she remembers Karen coming on over, and being there, kind
20	of in -- and she describes a very chaotic scene, where
21	everybody is running around and screaming and everything.
22			She said that the paramedic came in,
23	and then she said, "Is he dead?"
24			And the paramedic pulled him over and,
25	I guess at this point she is talking about Devon.  And
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	his eyes were open, and she said --  or he said he is
	2	dead.
	3				And then the paramedics started
	4	talking to her, and the next thing she remembers is about
	5	a necklace, the necklace kind of being embedded in her
	6	neck or something, and something about that.  And she
	7	said most of this is really very hazy.
	8				She didn't remember the E.R.  She
	9	didn't remember really much about getting in the
10	ambulance except that Darin wanted to get in the
11	ambulance and then they said, no, he couldn't.
12				Her next real, kind of clear,
13	consistent, lengthy memory, is her mom being in her room
14	and she was asking her mom if they were both dead.
15				Again, do you want me to go on?  I
16	mean, then we're kind of getting into --
17			Q.	Well, that gets more into her hospital
18	stay?
19			A.	Right.
20			Q.	When did her memory clear up?
21			A.	Well, again, her memory is very patchy
22	or spotty for a lot of the time, before her arrest.
23			Q.	Okay.
24			A.	And I even think within the first day
25	or so of her arrest, it's kind of, you know, she kind of
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	again, remembers some things and then other people told
	2	her other things.
	3			Q.	Okay.  So you went over this story
	4	with her several times?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	And in quite a bit of detail?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	Okay.  And, what you have just related
	9	to the jury, is that the story that she would tell you
10	every time?
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	Okay.
13			A.	Again, I can go back.  I started -- we
14	had, where we started that morning, started that evening,
15	you know, with cooking dinner.
16				Again, I started at the point of
17	waking up, I started at the point of waking up in the
18	hospital.  I started at the point of Darin running down
19	the stairs.  There were just a lot of -- you start at
20	different points?
21			Q.	Right.  That is -- she gave you the
22	same story?
23			A.	Yes.
24			Q.	As out and running through, and waking
25	up, and this man is what, walking off?  Or where is he
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	when she spots him?
	2			A.	Yes, she describes seeing a figure,
	3	that I guess she assumes he is a man, kind of with his
	4	back to her, walking away, or into the kitchen.
	5				Again, I never -- that is -- okay.
	6			Q.	Now, and then you went into great
	7	detail about what happened after that, as far as where
	8	she was with the towels and the children and the
	9	paramedics and all of that, didn't you?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	And, basically it was the same story
12	every time?
13			A.	Yes, within reason.  Again, I think
14	anybody, in that situation, including probably the
15	paramedics and even the police, when something is so
16	chaotic, and everybody is -- everybody's adrenalin is
17	running, and there is some, you know, you may not
18	remember where you step five feet over this way, versus
19	going over to this chair, or picking up this, versus
20	that, and in what order, I mean, there may be some normal
21	discrepancy.  In fact, if there are not, I would think
22	someone was not being truthful.
23			Q.	Did she ever tell you that she
24	actually went over to Devon and put her hand on his
25	chest, and tried to close his chest wound?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, in one of her descriptions, she
	2	did.
	3			Q.	She did tell you that?
	4			A.	She kind of talked about going over
	5	there, going over there to him, and trying to -- well, I
	6	guess she was talking about going over there to him, and
	7	yes, I think I remember that.
	8			Q.	Is that one of the later times?
	9			A.	You mean --
10			Q.	When you said -- when you asked her
11	about the story?
12			A.	Again, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't
13	know shorthand, so I don't take everything down, but it
14	may not have been the first time I spoke with her, it may
15	have been the second or third time but, I mean --
16			Q.	Did you -- you said she remembered
17	seeing a vacuum cleaner?
18			A.	Yeah.
19			Q.	Where was that?
20			A.	She didn't say where it was.
21			Q.	Did she ever say she did anything with
22	it?
23			A.	I would have to look.  Do you want me
24	to go back through whether -- I know there was some -- I
25	know she felt like that there was some discrepancy in the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	way that the police detectives had described the vacuum
	2	cleaner, and the way that she knew it was suppose to have
	3	been, or was.
	4			Q.	Well, did she ever say that she was
	5	using that as a crutch, or walking around with it, or
	6	anything like that?
	7			A.	No, she did not tell me about anything
	8	like that.
	9			Q.	Okay.  Now, so, as far as the attack
10	goes, I guess she has no memory of that?
11			A.	No.
12			Q.	Her boys being attacked and then the
13	assault on her?
14			A.	Right.
15			Q.	And -- okay.  Did you ask her about
16	that, to try to see if she had any memory at all?
17			A.	Yes, sir.
18			Q.	Okay.  And she has just blanked that
19	out apparently, as far as the attack on her children and
20	herself goes?
21			A.	Yes, sir.
22			Q.	Her earliest memory would be her son
23	touching her and this man walking away?
24			A.	Yes, sir.  I mean, I guess her
25	assumption is that there was -- that some of it may have
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	happened while she was still asleep.  And, that she
	2	didn't kind of awaken or whatever, until her son was
	3	pressing on her on arm and said, "Mommy."
	4			Q.	Has she told you that she was just
	5	assuming that, that she was asleep when all this assault
	6	occurred?
	7			A.	Yeah, I mean, she doesn't understand
	8	it, and her description was that she wishes she could
	9	remember, and she doesn't -- I mean, she doesn't
10	understand why she doesn't have a memory of it.
11			Q.	Okay.  So she has no memory of this
12	event at all as to when her -- where her children were
13	attacked, when attacked or when she was attacked?
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	Okay.  Now you only caught part of
16	that Silly String video, I guess you said, on the news;
17	is that right?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	Okay.
21				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, could I have
22	just a moment, please?
23				THE COURT:  Yes, you may.
24				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  All right.  Let me
25	play something here.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE WITNESS:  All right.
	2			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  All right.  We have
	3	another copy.  Judge, I don't see the original videotape.
	4	We have another copy.
	5			THE COURT:  Perhaps Ms. Wallace
	6	wouldn't mind going to get that.
	7			MS. SHERRI WALLACE:  Yes, sir.
	8			THE COURT:  Well, let's move on to
	9	something else.
10			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  All right.
14		        Q.	All right.  When do you think that
15	this traumatic amnesia took place.  When did it start?
16	Right there at that time?
17		        A.	Well --
19			THE COURT:  I believe Ms. Wallace has
20	located that other copy now, if you want to go ahead, Mr.
21	Shook.
22			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Yes, sir.
23			THE COURT:  By agreement, that is an
24	extra copy of that tape, and it can be shown; is that
25	correct?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER:  Absolutely.
	2			THE COURT:  Thank you.  Let's move on.
	3			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Okay.  Thank you.
	4			THE COURT:  All right.  Okay.  Can
	5	you see it from there?
	6			THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	7			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Is everybody going to
	8	be able to see this?  Can you see it, Dr. Clayton?
	9			THE WITNESS:  Um-hum.  (Witness
10	nodding head affirmatively.)
11			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Okay.  I want to show
12	you -- this is the latter part of the interview, just
13	show you one part of it.
15			(Whereupon, a portion of
16				the video was played for
17				the jury, after which time,
18				the proceedings were
19				resumed on the record,
20				as follows:)
22			THE WITNESS:  Okay.
25		        Q.	Did you hear that?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, sir.
	2			Q.	Do you want me to play it again?
	3			A.	No, sir.
	4			Q.	I mean, I know it was kind of quick?
	5			A.	No, sir.
	6			Q.	Okay.  "He went after something
	7	defenseless, something so defenseless first, then he came
	8	to me, but he went after them first."
	9			A.	Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
10	affirmatively.)
11			Q.	Did you hear her making that
12	statement?
13			A.	Yes, sir, I did.
14			Q.	Okay.  That is a pretty positive
15	statement, isn't it, Dr. Clayton?
16			A.	I think it's an assumption.
17			Q.	You think it's an assumption?
18			A.	Well, that she made, and I think
19	everybody else also pretty much made, as far as how the
20	events occurred.
21			Q.	Well, why do you think it's an
22	assumption that she made, that she said, "He went to them
23	first, and then he tried to come to me"?
24			A.	I guess I just -- this has just been
25	an assumption made by her and everybody else, I think,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	with this case.
	2			Q.	Well, she didn't say that she is
	3	assuming that on that statement, does she?
	4			A.	No, she does not.
	5			Q.	She sounds pretty positive about what
	6	she is talking about, doesn't she?
	7			A.	Well, again, I think she -- she thinks
	8	that is the way it occurred, but I don't think that comes
	9	from her memory.
10			Q.	So --
11			A.	Or she has not told me that comes from
12	her memory.
13			Q.	So when she makes this statement, and
14	this is back on the 14th of June.
15			A.	Yes, sir.
16			Q.	Okay.   She just doesn't know what she
17	is talking about?
18			A.	Well, I think she is stating what she
19	thinks is true.
20			Q.	Okay.  She is just assuming that, and
21	that is your opinion?
22			A.	Yes, sir.
23			Q.	Okay.  If she has amnesia, traumatic
24	amnesia, it should be pretty consistent, shouldn't it?  I
25	mean if she doesn't remember the events, she shouldn't
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	remember the events, right?
	2		        A.    Well, again, and it's something that,
	3	I guess, I questioned her extensively about was that she
	4	had, you know, various people, kind of, "Well did you
	5	fight him off?  Do you remember that?"  And, at some
	6	point, everybody has somewhat of a sense of -- or
	7	somewhat of a suggestibility realm, and I think we talked
	8	about that, and she stated that she had made a
	9	statement -- and I can't remember to whom, but she said
10	something like, "I must have tried to fight him off.  It
11	must have happened, that, you know, he, you know, was
12	trying to stab me and I was fighting him off."
13		              But as far as her consistent
14	recollection of the events, that I have kind of related
15	to you, that has all been very consistent.  I think we
16	talked about it, and I questioned her about various
17	statements that have either been, I guess, stated that
18	she said, or that she may have actually said, at some
19	point, how they might be more -- have been more
20	suggestions, or her trying to make sense out of what
21	happened.  And in the sense that:  It must have happened
22	like this.
23		        Q.    So, if you heard, or are given
24	information that on the -- when she was at Baylor
25	Hospital, that she told a nurse, that she laying on her
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	right side in her bed and she said, "I was lying just
	2	like this when it happened.  I went to sleep.  Damon woke
	3	me up.  There was a man wrestling at my neck area, and I
	4	yelled, and he went off, and ran off."
	5				Would that be just her trying to
	6	remember events or perhaps that is just -- perhaps she
	7	didn't get her story straight yet?
	8			A.	Well, it's my opinion that is probably
	9	a misrecollection of either Mrs. Routier, or the nurse,
10	as to exactly what was worded when.
11			Q.	So your opinion is that would just be
12	a misrecollection on her part?
13			A.	Or the witness that says that is what
14	she said.
15			Q.	Oh, the witness.  That would be a
16	mistake on the witness's part?
17			A.	Well, when anybody is recounting
18	something that they have heard in a very traumatic event,
19	words like must have happened, or it must have been this
20	way, or maybe it did, might get lost or misunderstood.
21			Q.	Well, have you interviewed any of
22	these nurses that heard her various stories of how this
23	happened?
24			A.	No, I was not privy to talk with them.
25			Q.	Okay.  Of course, the other
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	explanation for it could be, Dr. Clayton, is that she
	2	just had not gotten her story straight?
	3			A.	I guess that could be one explanation,
	4	yes.
	5			Q.	Right.  And you say that you tested
	6	her, to make she is telling the truth, and you can do
	7	that by having her go through this story, and checking
	8	for discrepancies, and that sort of thing, and you
	9	started at different points; is that right?
10			A.	Yes.
11			Q.	Okay.  Now, if she is saying, "I have
12	traumatic amnesia," and she can't remember any of the
13	assault, you obviously can't question her or try to trick
14	her on that, can you?
15			A.	Well, you can question her about the
16	events, or what does she think happened, and that sort of
17	thing, but as far as --
18			Q.	Well, if she says, "I just don't
19	remember what happened."  You can't really question her
20	about a whole bunch, can you?
21			A.	No, not about specific details.
22			Q.	If she says "I can't remember anything
23	about how I was attacked or my children were attacked,
24	you can't test her on her truthfulness on that, can you?
25	I mean, that kind of shuts it down, doesn't it?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Well, about the specific details, yes,
	2	sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  And that is what is important
	4	here, isn't it?  The specific details.  I mean, this can
	5	be kind of a convenient defense, if you say "I just don't
	6	remember what happened."  That prevents detectives from
	7	asking questions like, "Well, golly, how could you sleep
	8	through your children being murdered, Mrs. Routier?"
	9				"I just don't remember.  I have got
10	traumatic amnesia".
11			A.	Well, sometimes some events are
12	unexplainable.
13			Q.	Right.
14			A.	And there have been other case reports
15	and literature where people, when -- even when they
16	wanted to remember specific events were unable to, and
17	just didn't.  And, it is my opinion that this is one of
18	these cases.
19			Q.	Okay.  But, this type of traumatic
20	amnesia, it's very rare, isn't it?
21			A.	Again, people not remembering events,
22	it's somewhat rare, as far as in the general population,
23	because, not that many people are attacked, or have that
24	violent assault.  But, among violent assault victims, it
25	may not be the common occurrence, but it's not, you know,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	it does happen.  I mean, I don't know what you
	2	statistically mean by rare.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Well, if she tells detectives
	4	on the morning when they question her on the 6th, that
	5	she struggled with this man on the couch, are you saying
	6	that she was just being -- that they were suggesting this
	7	to her, or she was misinterpreting things?
	8			A.	Well, in any kind of police or
	9	detective interrogation, there are a lot of different
10	interpretations about what they are doing with their
11	questioning, and whether a lot of times, police or
12	detectives interrogating someone, or questioning him, may
13	say, "Well, could it have happen like this and that?"
14				And so, I don't know, I wasn't there,
15	and I have not seen any kind of statement written, or
16	heard anybody say that statement, that she said that.
17	So --
18			Q.	Okay.  And if she told any other
19	nurses throughout the day that, "This man was standing
20	over me, and tried to attack me, and I fought him off".
21	That would be just something that she is trying to
22	explain to them or just something that she is grabbing
23	out of the thin air, or something that they are
24	suggesting to her?
25			A.	Again, I would have had to -- for me
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	to know that she actually told those nurses that, I would
	2	have had to hear that for myself.
	3			Q.	Okay.   And if she told a good friend
	4	of hers, by the name of Barbara Jovell, that the man was
	5	standing over her, and started to stab her and she was
	6	able to block the knife, again, would that be just
	7	something that she was just making up?
	8			A.	Again, I would have had to -- for me
	9	to believe that actually happened, I would have to hear
10	her telling her that.
11			Q.	Why would you have to be there, and be
12	present, Dr. Clayton?
13			A.	Because I know of this woman's mental
14	history.
15			Q.	Okay.  Now, that you saw this video
16	tape -- do you know of the nurses mental history?
17			A.	No, sir, I don't.
18			Q.	Is that why you would have to -- well,
19	why would you have to be there when the nurses --
20			A.	Well, again, for someone to remember a
21	statement that someone made in the course of their work
22	six months ago, I mean, I have trouble, you know,
23	recollecting things, and I have taken handwritten notes,
24	again, people's memory is not infallible, and if they
25	have not taken notes and --
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	So if they have taken careful notes,
	2	you could trust their memory more on that, couldn't you?
	3			A.	I would be more likely to trust their
	4	memory, yes, sir.
	5			Q.	If you knew one of those nurses took
	6	two and a half pages worth of notes, within the day of
	7	her telling that, would you trust the nurse then?
	8			A.	Well, again, I would have to know the
	9	nurse and the situation and also read the notes.
10			Q.	Okay.  So you just have to know the
11	nurse and the situation, before you could trust her,
12	whether she is telling the truth about that?
13			A.	Well, for you to have me make an
14	opinion about something that was said, I would -- again,
15	it would be best if I had heard actually what was being
16	said, and in what context.
17			Q.	Okay.  And this videotape you just saw
18	of her statement, that he went to them first, and then he
19	tried to come to me.  Does it look like anyone was
20	suggesting anything to her at that time?
21			A.	Not at that time, but I know that she
22	had been -- had come from a police interrogation.  And
23	also had had, I think one other one in the hospital
24	before that.
25			Q.	You told this jury that when the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	police came and questioned her that she was on Demerol?
	2			A.	That is my understanding, yes.
	3			Q.	Okay.  And because she was on Demerol,
	4	that acted as kind of a truth serum?
	5			A.	Well, Demerol is a narcotic, and so is
	6	Phenergan, and yes, they tend to -- again it's a lot
	7	like, people are more disinhibited and, in trying to --
	8	where you just, in like similar to when someone is
	9	drinking, except it is usually a little heavier sedation,
10	to kind of disinhibit inhibition, that people are more
11	likely to tell the truth, or not be able to follow along
12	with previous lies or deceptions.  They are just not as
13	sharp, so the truth comes out.
14			Q.	So, are you telling this jury, that if
15	she was on some Demerol there, and had committed this
16	murder, that she would have told the police:  "I did it."
17	Because Demerol acts like truth serum?
18			A.	Well, I said, that is a possibility,
19	yes, sir, that if she were going to -- I mean, most
20	people that commit murders confess.  Most people have --
21			Q.	They do?
22			A.	Yes, sir, they do.  At one point or
23	another.
24			Q.	I guess they keep giving me the wrong
25	cases.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			All right.  Are there any studies that show
	2	that Demerol acts as a truth serum?
	3			A.	No.  Again, I am comparing it to the
	4	Amytal interview, and there are many, many studies about
	5	that being --
	6			Q.	What is a Amytal interview?
	7			A.	Amytal is another narcotic, that is
	8	used in the psychiatric community, when someone is either
	9	consciously or subconsciously not being truthful.
10			Q.	They don't use Demerol for that, do
11	they?
12			A.	No, Demerol is longer acting.  That is
13	one of the reasons that Amytal is used, is because it is
14	very short acting, and they come out of it.
15			Q.	Is that other drug you talked about,
16	is that a painkiller?
17			A.	Amytal?
18			Q.	Yes.
19			A.	It can be used somewhat that way.
20	Again, it's somewhat of a heavy sedation.  You might use
21	it in some sort of surgery procedure.  It basically, to
22	my knowledge, is pretty much just used in those type of
23	interviews at this point.
24			Q.	Do you know how much Demerol she was
25	given before the detectives talked to her?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	No, I do not.
	2			Q.	Okay.  If it was a very light amount,
	3	would that change your opinion on that?
	4			A.	Well, again, I would -- because of the
	5	Phenergan also, and I know that she was given, or I -- I
	6	seem to recollect that she was given 25 milligrams.
	7			Q.	What is Phenergan?
	8			A.	Phenergan is another narcotic that is
	9	used to sedate people.  It is also used to decrease
10	nausea, vomiting and also diarrhea.
11			Q.	And they give you the Phenergan with
12	the Demerol to keep you from getting an upset stomach,
13	right?
14			A.	Yeah, but anybody that has had a
15	Phenergan shot, knows that it -- unless you have been
16	addicted, and using it on a daily basis, it makes you
17	very sedated.
18			Q.	Okay.  But having this traumatic
19	amnesia, again, that prevents any detective or anyone
20	else from asking key questions about what may have
21	happened in that room, doesn't it, Dr. Clayton?
22			A.	Well, it's my understanding that
23	from --
24			Q.	Is that right, Dr. Clayton?
25			A.	No, it doesn't prevent a detective
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	from asking that.
	2			Q.	It doesn't?  So --
	4				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Excuse me, Judge,
	5	if he will just do her the courtesy of letting her answer
	6	the question.
	7				THE COURT:  Well, I think both sides
	8	should do that, yes, sir.  Mr. Shook, please do that, and
	9	ask another question and then let her answer that.
10				THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't think it
11	prohibits the detective from asking.
14			Q.	Well, it would prevent -- I guess if
15	the person said, "I just have amnesia, and I can't
16	remember."
17				He can't ask her those few questions.
18	It wouldn't do him any good, would it?
19			A.	Well, I don't know, I'm not a
20	detective, but I think that he could ask the questions,
21	and I think that they -- my understanding is that they
22	did, over many, many hours, on different occasions.
23			Q.	Do you think that she slept through
24	this attack?
25			A.	I guess it's my opinion that probably
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	she was somewhat -- she was -- she probably didn't awake,
	2	and maybe was somewhat, because of her injury at the
	3	time, was kind of in some sort of daze, or again, people
	4	can get up and walk around and do a lot of things, and
	5	still kind of not be conscious.  There is something
	6	called somnolism.
	7				Anyway, I can't for sure tell you, but
	8	again, I believe she is telling me the truth when she
	9	describes the events.
10			Q.	Do you know how close those boys were
11	to her on the couch?
12			A.	I think they were within a few feet.
13			Q.	Okay.  And you knew that Damon -- do
14	you know what kind of stab wounds Damon received?
15			A.	Damon, my understanding is that he was
16	stabbed in the back.
17			Q.	Okay.  How many times?
18			A.	I don't know, several.
19			Q.	At least four penetrating wounds, and
20	two incised wounds.
21			A.	All right.
22			Q.	And Darlie told you that she was a
23	light sleeper, didn't she?
24			A.	No.  What she told me was that she had
25	always thought that she was a light sleeper, but it is
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	more that she -- once she was awake, she had trouble
	2	getting back to sleep.
	3			Q.	Okay.  Did she tell you, or do you
	4	remember reading in her voluntary statement that she
	5	wanted to sleep downstairs because she woke up when the
	6	baby turned over?
	7			A.	She said -- yeah, I read that in the
	8	statement.
	9			Q.	Okay.  If Damon Routier was about one
10	foot from her, or two feet at the most, when he was
11	stabbed in the back, do you believe that she could have
12	slept through that?
13			A.	I don't know.
14			Q.	What does your common sense tell you?
15			A.	That probably she wouldn't have been
16	asleep.
17			Q.	Okay.  And, if her other son, Devon,
18	was about as far as from me to you when he was stabbed in
19	the chest twice.  Do you think that she would have slept
20	through that?
21			A.	I don't know.
22			Q.	Well, what does your common sense tell
23	you?
24			A.	I guess, that at that distance, I
25	think some people could possibly sleep through it,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	depending on the amount of noise and what happened.
	2			Q.	What about if she was hit a whole
	3	bunch and caused blunt trauma to her arms, she is not
	4	going to sleep through that, is she?
	5			A.	No, sir.
	6			Q.	And she is certainly --
	7			A.	I would not --
	8			Q.	You wouldn't think she would?
	9			A.	I would not think so.
10			Q.	Okay.  And you wouldn't think she
11	could sleep through getting her throat slashed, or her
12	arm cut, or anything like that, would you?  You probably
13	would wake up if that happened, wouldn't you?
14			A.	Again, yes, but I think that she has
15	no memory of it, and I think that it's explainable.
16			Q.	Okay.  You read over her voluntary
17	statement; is that right?
18			A.	Yes, sir.
19			Q.	And you also -- well, let me ask you
20	this:  Do you remember in the voluntary statement, her
21	making the statement that, in the middle of all this
22	commotion going on, with the children laying there
23	bleeding, Darin trying to administer CPR; do you have a
24	copy of it?
25			A.	Yes, sir.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Good.  Go to page 7.  I'm
	2	sorry, page 8, and in the middle there, you see the
	3	sentence that starts out, "I then stood up and turned
	4	around and saw glass all over the kitchen floor."
	5			A.	Well, I'm not sure where that is.
	6			Q.	Page 8, it should be up at the top.
	7			A.	Then holding a towel --
	8			Q.	Go to page 8.  Is it the next one?
	9	Let me check it out.  No, that's too far.  Here it is.
10			A.	Okay.
11			Q.	All right.  Do you see where it says,
12	"I then stood up and turned around, and saw glass all
13	over the kitchen floor."
14			A.	Yes, sir.
15			Q.	That is part of the statement where
16	she is -- Darin has come down and is attending to Devon,
17	and she is calling 911; is that right?
18			A.	That is my understanding.
19			Q.	All right.  And then, the next
20	sentence is, "I tried to glance over to see if anything
21	was out of place, and if anything was missing."
22			A.	Yes.
23			Q.	Okay.  And she told you on the 911, I
24	believe it is apparent on the 911 tape, she says,
25	"Nothing is touched, nothing is touched," one time in
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	there; is that right?
	2			A.	I don't remember hearing that
	3	statement.
	4			Q.	Okay.  Does it seem strange to you,
	5	that a mother that is witnessing all this, was woken up,
	6	her children are stabbed, and her husband is trying to
	7	administer aid, and she starts taking an inventory, to
	8	see if items are missing; does that seem like strange
	9	behavior to you?
10			A.	Well, again, human behavior, people do
11	a lot of different things, and focus on a lot of
12	different things when things are happening.
13				My view of the situation is, and her
14	description of it repeatedly to me was that that may have
15	been like a split second kind of look, or later on
16	something that she kind of thought about, but her main
17	concern was the boys and their, you know, being hurt.
18			Q.	Well, but we know from her statement
19	that at one time during that scenario, her concern was,
20	she wanted to see if any of her items were gone.
21			A.	Well, again, if you are looking
22	around, or if you are just glancing at a room, you might
23	just glance and make a statement about that.
24			Q.	So you think that is a normal
25	reaction?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	To glance at a surrounding when you
	2	are --
	3			Q.	Well, are you assuming that she just
	4	glanced at the surrounding?
	5			A.	Yes.
	6			Q.	Okay.   Do you recall on the 911 tape
	7	her saying about the knife, "Oh, I picked it up.  Maybe
	8	we could have gotten prints off of that."
	9			A.	The way I remember the tape, is
10	hearing the operator saying, "Don't pick up or don't
11	touch that, and then her saying, 'Oh I picked it up.'"
12			Q.	Okay.  Do you have a copy of the
13	transcript or did you just listen to it?
14			A.	I just listened to it.
15			Q.	Okay.  Let me show you what has been
16	marked as State's Exhibits 18-E, and I will let you start
17	looking at page 9.
18			A.	All right.
19			Q.	And if you will go over to the next
20	page, do you see where she starts talking about picking
21	up the knife?
22			A.	Yes.
23			Q.	Okay.  Now, at that point, actually
24	the 911 operator was saying:  "You need to let the police
25	officers in the front door," is that right?  At least,
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	according to that document.
	2		        A.	Yes.
	3		        Q.	Okay.  And then her response is, "His
	4	knife was lying over there, and I already picked it up";
	5	is that right?
	6		        A.	Well, I see it, but it is printed as
	7	unintelligible --
	9			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, this is --
10	we will object --
11			THE COURT:  Just a minute, ma'am.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, this is
13	misleading and this is out of context, and he knows that.
14			He knows that there are a number of
15	conversations going on at that same time, that a police
16	officer is already there, and she's talking to the police
17	officer, and she is talking to her husband, and she is
18	talking to 911.
19			THE COURT:  What is your legal
20	objection?
21			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, that is my
22	objection.
23			THE COURT:  Okay.  Overruled. Go
24	ahead.
25			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  He has misadvised
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	the witness as to the circumstances.
	2				MR. TOBY SHOOK::  I'm not trying to
	3	misadvise you, Doctor.  It comes up several times.
	4				THE WITNESS:  Yes.
	5				THE COURT:  Go ahead, continue.
	8			Q.	Now, I just want to talk about the
	9	time she talks about getting prints.  That only comes up
10	once.
11			A.	Yes.
12			Q.	Okay.  And then, the operator says,
13	"Okay, it's all right.  It's okay."  And then, it says,
14	female caller, "God, I bet we could have gotten the
15	prints maybe, maybe."
16				Do you think that is normal behavior
17	for a mother on the 911 call, talking to an operator,
18	while her children are lying there dying?
19			A.	Well, I think it is in the realm.
20	Again, I listened to the whole tape, and the whole
21	conversation sounds very in the realm of appropriateness,
22	or of a mother with two dying children.
23			Q.	Okay.  So, you think there was nothing
24	inappropriate, or abnormal, or strange about that comment
25	at all?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Not in the whole context of the 911
	2	call, no, sir.
	3			Q.	Okay.  What did she tell you about --
	4	what her suicide was all about?  The May 3rd suicide
	5	attempt.
	6			A.	Well --
	7			Q.	Or contemplation of suicide.
	8			A.	Well, it wasn't an attempt.  Again,
	9	her description of it was that she was just feeling kind
10	of somewhat overwhelmed.  That, she had, I guess, bought
11	some over-the-counter pills and she was thinking about
12	taking them.  That she started writing out the note, but
13	then she didn't think she could do it.  Or thought about
14	writing it, I don't remember which, but in the event, she
15	called her husband, and essentially told him that, "You
16	need to come home.  I'm feeling really bad."
17				And he came home, and they cried, and
18	talked and things got better very shortly after that.
19			Q.	Okay.  And, did she tell you that the
20	first time you talked to her, when you saw her in jail
21	back on June the 20th?
22			A.	Well --
23			Q.	Let me get some of that stuff out of
24	your hands.
25			A.	When, I saw her, pretty much, I
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	think -- whenever you are interviewing someone, like, as
	2	far as in jail, to assess if they are suicidal.  What I
	3	always do, that first interview is a little longer, is
	4	you ask them about past suicide attempts.  I didn't know,
	5	I mean, I wasn't privy to any of the police things, so
	6	just in my regular talking to her as an inmate, I asked
	7	her if she had ever -- was she suicidal now, and she said
	8	no, and -- that -- and I asked her if she had ever
	9	thought of -- or if she had ever had any other suicide
10	attempts.
11		              And she said no, she had not had an
12	attempt, but that she had thought about suicide.  And,
13	she again, this is her just talking to me as a jail
14	psychiatrist, that she felt tired and upset, and that she
15	actually bought some over-the-counter pills, but wrote a
16	note and knew she couldn't do it, she called her husband,
17	he came home, they talked and cried, and she felt better,
18	and that the depression was gone after -- totally gone by
19	a month.
20		              She said things were better.  She
21	talked about them starting to do things as a family.
22	Doing things I mentioned -- or she mentioned I remember,
23	roller blades.  She denied -- I asked her, then I asked
24	her, "Do you know anybody that has actually killed
25	themselves?"
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1				Again, that is a question you ask,
	2	because it increases their risk factor.
	3			Q.	Okay.  And, you are referring to your
	4	notes that you made?
	5			A.	Yes, sir.
	6			Q.	Made there?
	7			A.	Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	If I could see those for just a
	9	moment?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	The documents here, State's Exhibit
12	145, your notes from all of your visits, are included in
13	all of that; is that right?
14			A.	Yes, to my knowledge they are.
15			Q.	From what you have seen; right?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	And then I guess, the two other
18	psychiatrists, their notations are contained in here?
19			A.	Yes.
20			Q.	And then I believe there are some
21	nurses notations also; is that right?
22			A.	Yeah, in the way you have the
23	documents put together, in the actual chart, the way it
24	is, is the doctors' notes are on blue sheets and they are
25	separate from the nurses' notes.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.
	2			A.	Which are on, I think, white sheets.
	3			Q.	But they are all kept together, are
	4	they not?
	5			A.	Yes, but they are not in -- again they
	6	are separated out.  The doctors, from day one to the
	7	current date are in one place, and then the nurses, from
	8	day one to the current are in another place.  They are
	9	not like blue, white, blue, white pages.
10			Q.	They are all regular business records
11	for the stuff that you do when you see --
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Patients out there?
14			A.	Medical records.
15			Q.	Medical records?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	You use business records.  Okay.  But
18	they are all kept in the regular course of you and the
19	other doctors and the nurses duties; is that right?
20			A.	Yes, sir.
21			Q.	Okay.  And, they are on the Dallas
22	County medical records sheets that -- the information
23	that you usually put it on; is that right?
24			A.	Yes, sir.
25			Q.	And all of these records here are all
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	related to Darlie Lynn Routier; is that right?
	2		        A.	That is my understanding, I mean, yeah
	3	if they have got a name on it, I assume, yes.
	4		        Q.	Okay.
	6			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  We will offer all of
	7	State's Exhibit 145 at this time, Judge.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, again we
	9	don't have any objection to the notes that Dr. Clayton
10	took on there, but we're not going to agree -- A:  We
11	have not read it; and, B:  We are not going to agree to
12	some notes that --
13			THE COURT:  Well, take time to read it
14	right now.
15			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  This may take
16	some time --
17			THE COURT:  All right.
18			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, one
19	other thing, she is not the custodian.  She is not the
20	proper person to support this.
21			THE COURT:  Well, then my ruling is,
22	if she is not the custodian, I am going to let in those
23	records that she can identify.  I think I have made that
24	clear.  And the others, they can question her about them,
25	but we're not going to admit those.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			She is not the custodian of the
	2	records, and so, I think we have already admitted those,
	3	and she has said that -- the Doctor has said that she can
	4	identify, and the others will not be admitted at this
	5	time.
	6			So, what else do we have to rule on?
	7	Let's move on.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All right.
11		        Q.	All right.  Well, let me show you the
12	first page here.  Those are some nurses' notes taken on
13	the 18th of June; is that right?
14		        A.	Yeah.  Again, I don't feel like -- I
15	don't fell confident in talking about anything but the
16	notes that I know I wrote, because --
18			THE COURT:  All right.  That's fine.
19			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, he
20	is try to do indirectly what he cannot do directly.
21			THE COURT:  I understand all of that,
22	and the ruling stays the same.  Let's move on to
23	something else, Mr. Shook.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			Q.	Do you think that someone might have
	3	slipped something in there, Doctor?
	4			A.	No, I just don't know that -- I am not
	5	familiar with that part of the record, but I do recognize
	6	my own writing.
	7			Q.	Well, let's stick just to your notes.
	8	Okay?
	9			A.	Okay.
10			Q.	First of all, when you first saw --
12				THE COURT:  We are going to continue
13	with this witness, ladies and gentlemen, if we can
14	possibly finish today.
17			Q.	When you saw her on the 20th, you
18	didn't feel any need to prescribe antidepressants, or any
19	other medication at that time, did you?
20			A.	I don't know -- feel any need, I
21	thought that her -- as far as treating, I guess, my
22	medical opinion, as far as treating depression, is that
23	you don't necessarily treat someone for major depression,
24	when they have just undergone a traumatic event.  Because
25	that is appropriate to have a depressed mood, and grief
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	and sorrow.  So --
	2			Q.	Did you prescribe any antidepressants
	3	or medications at that time?
	4			A.	No, I did not.
	5			Q.	Okay.  She was able to sleep and eat
	6	okay at that time, wasn't she?
	7			A.	She again, she -- her eating, she
	8	described as fair.  She said her sleeping was -- I guess
	9	I wrote okay.  Again, I think I was assessing it in the
10	context of the situation.  Most people don't go to sleep
11	and -- but she was having -- or getting some sleep.
12	Usually the way the jail works and just after any
13	traumatic situation it is within an hour or two, and then
14	another hour.  But -- I assessed her sleeping as
15	appropriate for the situation.
16			Q.	Okay.  And, you have not seen all of
17	this tape that was taken by Channel 5 out at the grave
18	site, called the Silly String party, have you?
19			A.	No, I have not.
20			Q.	Okay.  But you say that that is an
21	appropriate grief response.  That is appropriate
22	behavior; is that right?
23			A.	Well, the events surrounding it have
24	been described to me by Mrs. Routier, her husband, her
25	mother, and I guess I have heard various comments, or
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	seen various comments other people have made about it in
	2	the paper, and the description.
	3			Q.	But you have not seen it yourself;
	4	right?
	5			A.	No, I have not seen the whole thing,
	6	no, sir.
	7			Q.	It has only been described to you by
	8	the defendant, her husband, and the mother?
	9			A.	And the news media.
10			Q.	And the news media?
11			A.	Yes, sir.
12			Q.	And, you think that that is
13	appropriate behavior what went on out there?
14			A.	Well, again, I don't think it's -- I
15	don't think you can say what is appropriate and not
16	appropriate in grief situations.  I think everybody
17	grieves differently, and that, if people were at an Irish
18	wake, or something like that, that some people might
19	think it was inappropriate.
20				I think it's in the realm of normal
21	grieving.  And I know that Mrs. Routier is on trial for
22	murder, but everybody else there is not, so obviously,
23	they were, you know, grieving in the same type of way
24	that she was.
25			Q.	And, how much are you paid for your
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1	work that you have done?
	2			A.	I'm paid an hourly fee.
	3			Q.	How much is that?
	4			A.	Two hundred and fifty dollars an hour.
	5			Q.	Okay.  Are you paid any more while you
	6	testify?
	7			A.	No, sir, it's my -- I bill, actually
	8	I'm kind of in the middle of the road for forensic
	9	psychiatrists.  Some of the other ones bill up to three
10	hundred and fifty to four hundred dollars an hour.
11				But, I bill for my time, no matter
12	whether it's reviewing records or testifying, it's all a
13	part of my time.  So I bill the same amount.
14			Q.	And what is your total bill for this
15	case going to be?  Do you have that totaled up yet?
16			A.	No, I don't.  I have not -- I have not
17	totaled it up.  My secretary bills monthly, and I don't
18	even know if she has sent out the bill for December.
19			Q.	Okay.
20			A.	And I know she has not sent it out for
21	January, because it's not over yet.
22			Q.	Okay.   As far as the categories you
23	were going over that Mrs. Routier doesn't fit into.  One
24	was revenge; is that right?  Or what was that category
25	called?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	I think specifically, retaliation or
	2	spousal revenge.
	3			Q.	Spousal revenge.
	4			A.	Yes.  That was Dr. Resnick's category.
	5			Q.	Okay.  And, of course, your
	6	information about their relationship comes from Darin
	7	Routier and Darlie Routier; is that right?
	8			A.	Well, also, the mother-in-law.
	9			Q.	Okay.
10			A.	And then her mother.
11			Q.	And her mother?
12			A.	Yes.
13			Q.	So as far as whether there is any
14	problems in their relationship, and what was going on,
15	you have to depend on those people to give you the
16	accurate information; is that right?
17			A.	Yes.
18			Q.	Okay.  And did she tell you that they
19	had been fighting that night, that Wednesday night?
20			A.	She -- yes, I mean, again, throughout
21	the whole, I guess, 12 and a half hours, she has been
22	very forthright and honest about their problems, their
23	lumps and bumps in the marriage.
24			Q.	What were they fighting about?
25			A.	She was upset because he -- his Jaguar
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	had been breaking down all the time, and I guess what had
	2	kind of culminated it, was that he had left it somewhere,
	3	and the man had called her that afternoon, and kind of
	4	been rude to her, about having Darin come get the Jaguar.
	5			People kind of described Darin, or the
	6	people that I have interviewed, as someone that you kind
	7	of have to tell him several times to do something before
	8	he does it.
	9			So, she was kind of aggravated she
10	stated because he hadn't -- he didn't take care of the
11	Jaguar and here she was having to deal with this man
12	calling her up and being rude, while she had her kids,
13	and, you know, neighborhood kids and everybody in and out
14	of the house.
15			Also, she was a little bit upset
16	because Darin was taking her -- I guess she had a
17	Pathfinder, and that kind of was leaving her and the
18	kids, and they were wanting to go do things and run
19	around, now that school was out.  And so, she was upset
20	about that.
21			And, then also, they had a boat that
22	they had not really used in a long time, and because of
23	now that they had the baby, she said that she wasn't
24	planning on using it.  I guess, because they wouldn't
25	take the baby out to the lake, and so, she felt like that
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	something needed to be done because here they had this
	2	car that wasn't working too well, that was going to cost
	3	them money to fix, and here they had this boat that was
	4	not working well, that was going to cost them money to
	5	fix, and both of these were kind of Darin's deal, and she
	6	wanted him to -- I guess, my understanding was that she
	7	wanted him to make a decision and get something done.
	8				Darin, you know, they argued back and
	9	forth, they argued, and she stated that kind of -- and he
10	also stated that what kind of came out of it was that he
11	was going to fix the boat, and then sell it because they
12	weren't going to use it, and then get the car fixed, and
13	then consider buying more reliable than a Jaguar, a
14	little more reliable means of transportation.
15			Q.	And, do you believe that they had a
16	very happy relationship from what they told you?
17			A.	Yes, I do.
18			Q.	Okay.  And, you believe Darlie when
19	she tells you that she can't remember any of this that
20	happened?
21			A.	Yes, I do.
22			Q.	Okay.  But you were not present at the
23	house during any of this, were you, Dr. Clayton?
24			A.	No, sir, I was not.
25			Q.	And you were not present at the house
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	during the month leading up to this, and saw how their
	2	relationship was personally, did you?
	3			A.	No, I did not.
	4			Q.	Okay.  But you trust and believe the
	5	versions of what they have told you?
	6			A.	And, also, I guess his mother, and
	7	then also her mother.  Yes, sir.
	8			Q.	Okay.
	9			A.	Again, they --  I don't want to
10	mislead that they -- either one of them told me
11	everything was perfect and they never had arguments or
12	fights.  I think that both of them, which is one of the
13	reasons that I tended to believe them, did admit, to
14	fights and disagreements, and you know, problems that
15	regular married people have in their relationship.
16				And I think also, his mother and her
17	mother both were very much the same way, in that they
18	didn't paint this couple as just being the perfect
19	idyllic couple, but they were just a normal, happy,
20	married couple, with problems that came up, and
21	disagreements, and faults and weaknesses and that sort of
22	thing.
23				But, everybody, again, I feel like was
24	very forthright and truthful in their descriptions of
25	them.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  What it boils down to is this,
	2	I guess:  It happened one of two ways, some stranger came
	3	in and did this horrible killing; or, you have been
	4	fooled by the defendant and she did it?
	5			A.	Well, I think there is another
	6	possible explanation is that, maybe this wasn't -- and I
	7	know that both of them have told the police, on numerous
	8	occasions that there were some different individuals that
	9	might have had some motive.
10			Q.	Who are these people?
11			A.	They're -- I guess, a man that had
12	worked around where they did at the shop.  I guess his
13	name is Glenn.  And that he had made threats against
14	them, and he had allegedly kind of come on to Basia.
15				His wife had called up Darlie, and
16	talked to her, and Darlie had told the man's wife, call
17	Basia, and I guess Basia told the man, yes, that he had
18	made threats to come on to her, and, that this man --
19			Q.	Let me stop you there for a second,
20	and I will let you continue.  Who was telling you this
21	about this man named Glenn?
22			A.	Both Darlie and Darin.
23			Q.	Okay.  Okay.  And this is a man that
24	threatened them, you say, or they told you that -- Darlie
25	told you this man named Glenn had threatened her?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			A.	Yes, that he had made some threats,
	2	and she also told me that she had told the police
	3	detectives about this.
	4			Q.	When did she say she told the police
	5	detectives this?
	6			A.	From the very beginning, it's my
	7	understanding.
	8			Q.	Did she think that this man was the
	9	one that came in there?
10			A.	She didn't identify him as being a --
11	specifically, but she thought that he might have -- he --
12	you know, he was someone with possibly a motive, because
13	he had just gotten a divorce and lost his rights to his
14	kids, essentially because of this whole deal with his
15	wife and Basia and Darlie, not -- I guess not lying for
16	him.
17			Q.	Okay.  And so, she says she told the
18	police that this man, Glenn, might be the one?
19			A.	Yes.  And she said that, I guess, a
20	couple of weeks prior to the murder the divorce was
21	final, he had lost custody of his little boy, he
22	supposedly has a history of being somewhat physically
23	abusive, and had been arrested several times for
24	fighting, and that a lot of people are afraid of him
25	because of his temper.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			Q.	Okay.  Does he look anything like the
	2	man she saw leaving the house?
	3			A.	We didn't really go into that.  I
	4	mean, when I was talking about -- this is just more of
	5	her expressing her frustration with the police not
	6	looking at any leads.
	7			Q.	So she says that she told the police
	8	that this man named Glenn has threatened me, and y'all
	9	need to check him out?
10			A.	Um-hum.  (Witness nodding head
11	affirmatively.)
12			Q.	Okay.  Anyone else?  Did she give
13	anyone else as a suspect?
14			A.	Well, my understanding is that she
15	told, I guess, the detectives, Patterson and Frosch,
16	this.
17			Q.	Okay.
18			A.	And, I don't know about anybody since
19	then.
20			Q.	Okay.  That is the only one then?
21			A.	The only police?
22			Q.	The only suspect?
23			A.	Oh, yes, that was the only -- yeah,
24	that was the one that she mentioned to me.
25			Q.	Okay.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  That is all we have,
	3	Judge.
	4			THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder.
	5			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I'll be brief.
11		        Q.	Frustrated with the police and their
12	investigation?
13		        A.	Yes, sir.
14		        Q.	All right.  Just a thing or two, and I
15	will be brief.  But when I first contacted you I told you
16	that I had just got into this case, a week or ten days,
17	or two weeks ago, or whatever.
19			MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, I will object
20	to the leading.
21			THE COURT:  Well --
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, Judge, they
23	brought it up.
24			THE COURT:  Well, go ahead, Mr.
25	Mulder.  I think that is offered merely, what is being
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	said, not for the truth of the matters asserted, but
	2	let's just go ahead and be brief, Mr. Mulder.
	6			Q.	You understand that I had just
	7	recently come into the case?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	All right.  And, I told you that you
10	could see --
12				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, I will object
13	to that.  That is hearsay.
14				THE COURT:  I'll sustain that.
15				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, this was
16	gone into.
17				THE COURT:  All right.
21			Q.	You set up the guidelines - -
23				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  Judge, was that
24	sustained?
25				THE COURT:  Mr. Mulder, phrase your
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	questions properly.
	2				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
	3				THE COURT:  All right, go ahead.
	6			Q.	You set up the terms under which you
	7	wanted to see Darlie, did you not?
	8			A.	Yes, sir.
	9			Q.	And I agreed to them?
10			A.	Yes, sir.
11			Q.	You just said that you would tell the
12	truth, regardless of what it was?
14				MR. TOBY SHOOK:  I will object to
15	leading and bolstering.
16				THE COURT:  I will sustain as to the
17	bolstering.  The jury is instructed to disregard the
18	comments of the witness.  Next question.  Go ahead,
19	please.
20				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
23			Q.	And, I dare say, in the majority of
24	the cases in which you are hired, you probably don't end
25	up testifying, do you?
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1		        A.	In the capital, when I am hired, I
	2	have been hired several times by the defense in capital
	3	murder cases, and, yes, I don't usually testify, because
	4	when I come back, I give my honest opinion, after I have
	5	interviewed the person, and done the evaluation.
	6			And when I come back, most often, what
	7	I say, the defense doesn't want to use me, because, I say
	8	the person either admits it to me when they didn't admit
	9	it to the police or in court.  Or, that they are lying,
10	and they have got a history of being anti-social, and,
11	you know, I can't say anything good about this
12	individual.
13			So, yeah, most of the time in capital
14	murder cases, I am not asked to testify by the defense
15	when they -- when I have been hired to evaluate them.
16		        Q.	Okay.  You made a statement to Mr.
17	Shook on cross examination that you could make a valid
18	assessment, even though you didn't get the truth, or even
19	though people lied to you, or give you false information
20	about a situation.  You said that you could still make a
21	valid assessment.
22			Will you clear that up, so that -- I
23	know where you going on it, but will you clear that up
24	for the jury?
25		        A	Well, I am just saying that I have
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	interviewed a lot of criminal defendants, and I can
	2	assess, even when they are lying to me, a valid
	3	assessment that they are lying to me.
	4				I don't -- you know, the way he was
	5	making the question, it would be every one would have to
	6	tell me the truth in order for me to make a valid
	7	assessment, and that is not the case.
	8				I can make a valid assessment if
	9	someone is lying to me, when they are lying to me.
10			Q.	Okay.   You have furnished Mr. Shook
11	with copies of all of your notes?
12			A.	Yes, sir.
13			Q.	Okay.  And in that, in the notes, you
14	had questioned Darlie or she had told you about dreams
15	that she had had about these events?
16			A.	Yes, sir.
17			Q.	Can you briefly tell us what the
18	dreams were?
19			A.	Well --
20				MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  That is my last
21	question, Judge.
23				THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Shook may have
24	some further cross.
25				THE WITNESS:  Would you -- in my
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	notes, I don't know where in my notes -- I know that she
	2	talked about having dreams --
	5		        Q.	Nightmares or dreams?
	6		        A.	Well, yes, I was just trying to see
	7	where, I don't have them numbered.  Oh, she said 5 to 7
	8	times she had dreamed of laying on the couch with this
	9	man laying on her, touching her, that the knife is on her
10	chin, he was saying something, but she couldn't see him.
11	She was fighting him.
12			He falls off, hits the coffee table,
13	and lands on Damon, stabbing him.  That she was beating
14	him, hitting him, and he reaches over and tries to stab
15	patient.  She wakes up at that point, and she said that
16	in some of the dreams that she saw the man wearing a
17	baseball cap, and sometimes she didn't.
18			And that she had the dream several
19	times within that first month of what had happened.
20		        Q.	Okay.
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I believe that's
23	all.  We will pass the witness.
24			MR. TOBY SHOOK::  Nothing further,
25	Judge.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  You may step down, ma'am.
	3			(Whereupon, the witness
	4			 was excused from the courtroom.)
	6			THE COURT:  All right.  Ladies and
	7	gentlemen, we're going to be recessed until tomorrow
	8	morning, at 9:00 o'clock.  Same instructions as always:
	9	Do no investigation on your own.  Do not speak about this
10	case with anybody.  The case is not over yet.
11			If someone tries to talk to you, tell
12	the bailiff who is with you at the time.  Do no
13	investigation on your own.  You will decide this case
14	from the testimony you hear, and the evidence that you
15	will receive in this courtroom.
16			Will everybody please stop moving
17	their books and have a seat, please, just a minute.
18			All right.  This case, the publicity
19	is rampant about this, it may be on the radio, or T.V.,
20	or in the newspapers, if it is, please ignore anything,
21	you see or hear, and it would be a good idea not to read
22	the papers, listen to the radio, or see T.V., while this
23	case is going on.
24			Wear your juror badge at all times,
25	and see you tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	2			(Whereupon, the jury
	3			was excused from the
	4			courtroom, and the
	5			proceedings were held
	6			in the presence of the
	7			defendant, with her
	8			attorney, but outside
	9			the presence of the jury
10			as follows:)
12			THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
13	Can the attorneys please remain?
14			MR. RICHARD MOSTY:  Can Dr. Clayton
15	go?
16			THE COURT:  Dr. Clayton and Dr.
17	DiMaio, you are free to go.  Please do not discuss your
18	testimony with anybody.  Ma'am, particularly with the
19	T.V.
20			THE WITNESS:  I'm not saying anything.
21			THE COURT:  If this shows up on the
22	T.V., that would be a violation, and you could end up in
23	the Kerr County jail.
24			THE WITNESS:  No, I'm not saying
25	anything.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			THE COURT:  All right.  I understand
	2	that we may be -- I understand that we may be
	3	approaching -- you willing be closing -- you will have
	4	one more witness, Mr. Mulder; is that it?
	5			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I didn't say that
	6	I have one more witness.
	7			THE COURT:  Well, do you or don't you?
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I told you
	9	that I would take three days, and I will finish up by
10	noon tomorrow.
11			THE COURT:  All right.  By noon
12	tomorrow.  Excuse me, I don't mean one more, but you will
13	be finished by noon tomorrow, is that right?
14			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I will indeed,
15	your Honor.
16			THE COURT:  All right.  So if there is
17	any rebuttal coming on, you will have witnesses ready?
18			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
19			THE COURT:  And, I assume you will
20	have some sur-rebuttal is that correct?
21			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, it depends
22	on the rebuttal.
23			THE COURT:  I understand that.  But,
24	if you will have any sur-rebuttal witnesses ready then we
25	can do that too.
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1			When do both sides anticipate finally
	2	resting and closing?
	3			MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER:  Well, Judge --
	4			THEH COURT:  We won't hold you down.
	5	I understand.
	6			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, then it
	7	kind of depends on them.  You wouldn't want me to put my
	8	rebuttal on now, do you?
	9			THE COURT:  Well, that would be
10	wonderful.  It would be nice of you.
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I don't
12	know what the rebuttal will be until I hear theirs.
13			THE COURT:  Well, I understand what
14	you are saying.  But do you think that we will be able to
15	get this to the jury by Friday?  That is what I am asking
16	both sides.  Do you think that is a possibility?
17			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:   Anything is
18	possible, Judge.
19			THE COURT:  Well, I know it is, but it
20	may not be probable.  Do you think it is legally probable
21	that we might get that done?
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, it kind of
23	depends on their --
24			THE COURT:  I understand.
25			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, do you want
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	me to comment on it or not?
	2			THE COURT:  Well, do you think that is
	3	possible?
	4			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, it depends
	5	on their rebuttal.
	6			THE COURT:  I understand.
	7			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  If they have a
	8	day's worth of rebuttal, then it probably won't be
	9	possible.
10			THE COURT:  Well, I don't think it's
11	going to be that long.
12			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  All right.
13			MS. SHERRI WALLACE:  Doug, do you mean
14	by that, you would be finished by tomorrow at noon, is
15	that our cross examination of your witnesses as well?
16			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  I would think
17	that with reasonable cross examination, then I will be
18	finished tomorrow at noon, or so.
19			THE COURT:  All right.  Well, here's
20	the thing.  Well, I assume Mr. Hagler is going to be in
21	charge of the Charge; is that correct?  For your side.
22			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  He will do the
23	"haggling" for our side.
24			THE COURT:  That is fine.
25			And, who will do the haggling for the
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	State's side?
	2			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Well, I don't know
	3	that there will be haggling here.
	4			THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, all right.
	5	Well, whatever will be.
	6			MR. GREG DAVIS:  We will find someone.
	7			THE COURT:  Well, let's get someone to
	8	get on the Charge because the Charge is pretty well done.
	9	When we do get into argument, by agreement it is an hour
10	and a half to the side; is that correct?
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Yes, sir.
12			MR. GREG DAVIS:  Yes, sir.
13			THE COURT:  Any number of lawyers can
14	argue, but the total to each side is just going to get an
15	hour and a half.
16			So, on that note we will see everybody
17	tomorrow morning, 9:00 o'clock.  Let's have all the
18	witnesses, rebuttal and sur-rebuttal ready to go if
19	necessary.
20			MR. GREG DAVIS:  I can tell you that
21	we will have some of them, we may not have all of them
22	here tomorrow.
23			THE COURT:  I understand.
24			MR. GREG DAVIS:  But we will do our
25	very best.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 
	1			THE COURT:  I understand what you are
	2	saying, we will just do the best we can do.
	3			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Judge, if we go
	4	into -- if we go into Thursday, does that mean that we
	5	are going to argue Thursday or does that mean that we are
	6	going to argue Friday?
	7			THE COURT:  Well, I would like to --
	8	what I ideally like to do is finish up and have arguments
	9	in the morning and then give the case to the jury.  That
10	is what I would like to do.
11			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Argue Friday?
12			THE COURT:  Yes, or whenever -- you
13	know.  I mean, both sides will put on their cases.
14	Obviously, if it runs through Friday, we are not going to
15	do it.  But I am saying if we could do it, I would like
16	to argue first in the morning, and then give the case to
17	the jury during the day.
18			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Well, I think
19	that is --
20			THE COURT:  As opposed to arguing in
21	the evening and giving the jury -- giving the case to
22	them then.
23			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Are you going to
24	sequester the jury?
25			THE COURT:  Well, it depends on what
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	1	you want to do.  Do both sides want them sequestered?  It
	2	depends.  If you don't want them sequestered, I will
	3	certainly consider that.
	4			Why don't you think about it and let
	5	me know.  You don't have to make an ironclad statement
	6	now.  Just think about it, and let me know what you want
	7	to do.
	8			MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:  Okay.  We will do
	9	that.
10			See you in the morning.
11			THE COURT:  You bet.
13			(Whereupon, the jury was
14				previously excused, and
15				the proceedings were
16				recessed for the
17				day, to return on the
18				next day, January 29th, 1997,
19				at 9:00 A.M.)
22			(These proceedings are continued to
23	the next volume in this cause.)
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	4		  I, Sandra M. Halsey, was the Official Court
	5	Reporter of Criminal District Court Number 3, of Dallas
	6	County, Texas, do hereby certify that I reported in
	7	Stenograph notes the foregoing proceedings, and that they
	8	have been edited by me, or under my direction and the
	9	foregoing transcript contains a full, true, complete and
10	accurate transcript of the proceedings held in this
11	matter, to the best of my knowledge.
12		  I further certify that this transcript of the
13	proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits, if
14	any, offered by the respective parties.
15		  SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO, this _____ day of
16	___________, 1997.
17			__________________________________
18			Sandra M. Day Halsey, CSR
19			Official Court Reporter
20			363RD Judicial District Court
21			Dallas County, Texas
22			Phone, (214) 653-5893
24	Cert. No. 308
25	Exp 12-31-98
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
	8		  The above and foregoing transcript, as certified
	9	by the Official Court Reporter, having been presented to
10	me, has been examined and is approved as a true and
11	correct transcript of the proceedings had in the
12	foregoing styled cause, and aforementioned cause number
13	of this case.
19			__________________________________
21			Criminal District Court Number 3
22			Dallas County, Texas
			Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter