1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3 2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS 3 4 5 6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J 7 VS: } & A-96-253 8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number 9 10 11 12 13 REPORTERS RECORD 14 JURY TRIAL 15 VOL. 43 OF 53 VOLS. 16 January 28, 1997 17 Tuesday 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4399 1 C A P T I O N 2 3 4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Tuesday, the 28th day of 5 January, 1997, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of 6 Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for 7 a jury trial before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the 8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas, 9 with a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open 10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse, 11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as 12 follows: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4400 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 4 5 HON. JOHN VANCE 6 Criminal District Attorney 7 Dallas County, Texas 8 9 BY: HON. GREG DAVIS 10 Assistant District Attorney 11 Dallas County, Texas 12 13 AND: 14 HON. TOBY SHOOK 15 Assistant District Attorney 16 Dallas County, Texas 17 18 AND: 19 HON. SHERRI WALLACE 20 Assistant District Attorney 21 Dallas County, Texas 22 23 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4401 1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES: 2 3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER 4 Attorney at Law 5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower 6 717 N. Harwood 7 Dallas, TX 75201 8 9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER 10 Attorney at Law 11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower 12 717 N. Harwood 13 Dallas, TX 75201 14 15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY 16 Attorney at Law 17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams 18 820 Main Street, Suite 200 19 Kerrville, TX 78028 20 21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR. 22 Attorney at Law 23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams 24 820 Main Street, Suite 200 25 Kerrville, TX 78028 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4402 1 2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER 3 Attorney at Law 4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601 5 Dallas, TX 75202 6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE 7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER 8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL 9 AND: 10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III 11 Attorney at Law 12 820 Main Street, Suite 211 13 Kerrville, TX 78028 14 APPEARING FOR: Witness- 15 Detective Jimmy Patterson 16 only on one date in trial 17 AND: 18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL 19 Attorney at Law 20 620 Earl Garrett Street 21 Kerrville, TX 78028 22 APPEARING FOR: Witness 23 Officer Chris Frosch 24 only on one date in trial 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4403 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 January 28th, 1997 4 Tuesday 5 8:30 a.m. 6 7 (Whereupon, the following 8 proceedings were held in 9 open court, in the presence 10 and hearing of the 11 defendant, being 12 represented by her attorneys 13 and the representatives of 14 the State of Texas, but 15 outside the presence of the 16 jury, as follows:) 17 18 19 THE COURT: Mr. Mosty, are you ready? 20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, that 21 depends on what we're getting ready to do. 22 THE COURT: Well. All right. Where 23 is Mr. Mulder? 24 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I don't know, 25 your Honor. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4404 1 THE COURT: All right. Let the record 2 reflect that these proceedings are being held outside the 3 presence of the jury and all parties in the trial are 4 present. 5 Mr. Mosty, you will be representing 6 Mrs. Routier for this hearing. It's past 8:30 and I have 7 told everyone to be here at 8:30. 8 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Yes, sir, I 9 will represent Mrs. Routier. 10 THE COURT: I figured that is what we 11 will do. 12 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: If that is okay 13 with the Court? 14 THE COURT: That is fine with the 15 Court. Fine with the Court. All right. The purpose of 16 this hearing today is we're discussing the microphones 17 that were put out at the cemetery. And Officer -- let 18 the record reflect that Officer Patterson is present, and 19 he has been appointed an attorney for this purpose, Mr. 20 Albert Patillo, from Kerrville; and Officer Frosch has 21 been appointed Mr. Steve Pickell, P-I-C-K-E-L-L, of 22 Kerrville. 23 And, Mr. Patillo, you have conferred 24 with your client? 25 MR. PATILLO: Yes, I have, your Honor. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4405 1 THE COURT: And, what is the result of 2 that conference? 3 MR. PATILLO: We will decline to 4 testify further in this matter. And my client, on my 5 advice, will take the Fifth. 6 THE COURT: As regards to the 7 microphones at the cemetery? 8 MR. PATILLO: Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: All right. Will you, have 10 Mr. Pickell, and his client, step in, please. 11 And, let the record reflect that 12 Officer Frosch -- and I am embarrassed, I have forgotten 13 your first name. 14 OFFICER CHRIS FROSCH: Chris. 15 THE COURT: Officer Chris Frosch, 16 F-R-O-S-C-H, is present, and with his attorney, Mr. Steve 17 Pickell. 18 And you have conferred with your 19 client, Mr. Pickell? 20 MR. PICKELL: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. What is the result 22 of that conference? 23 MR. PICKELL: Your Honor, Detective 24 Frosch would assert his Fifth Amendment right. 25 THE COURT: Concerning the testimony Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4406 1 as regards to the recording devices or the microphones, 2 or whatever, that were put up at the cemetery, and only 3 regards that, concerning only that portion; is that 4 correct? 5 MR. PICKELL: That is correct, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. Fine. 8 Anything, Mr. Davis? 9 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. At this 10 time, the State would indicate that we believe this 11 testimony is not relevant, it's improper impeachment. 12 And, again, I'm talking about the subject of the mike on 13 the grave site. And we would ask that the Court instruct 14 Mr. Mulder not to go into these matters any further in 15 front of this jury, because again, we feel the 16 prejudicial effect here, of having to inform the jury 17 that these officers have taken the Fifth Amendment. 18 Again, we believe that the matters are 19 irrelevant and that they are improper impeachment. 20 THE COURT: The State is not going to 21 use anything that came out of that? 22 MR. GREG DAVIS: That is correct. We 23 are not going to go into that matter. We're not going to 24 offer any of those recordings, video or otherwise, so we 25 did not intend to talk about that matter in front of this Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4407 1 jury. 2 THE COURT: Was there any exculpatory 3 material in that? 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, sir, but in all, 5 in caution, I did turn over those matters to the defense. 6 THE COURT: So the defense has those 7 tapes? You gentlemen have those tapes? 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, they are 9 the ones that first went into this matter. We didn't go 10 into anything at the grave site. They did. 11 THE COURT: All I want to know right 12 now, Mr. Mulder, is: Do you have those tapes? 13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I have some 14 tapes. I don't know whether I have those. 15 THE COURT: Did you listen to them? 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 17 THE COURT: When were they given to 18 the defense? 19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, we didn't 20 get into the case until -- 21 MR. GREG DAVIS: Probably sometime in 22 November, I believe. 23 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: So, if it's like 24 everything else, it came in at the last minute or 25 sometime in January. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4408 1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, let me 2 describe that, your Honor. There is a video tape, that 3 is obviously taken from a vehicle near the grave site, 4 that you can see it panning on various people. And, then 5 you hear the audio. 6 Sometimes the audio -- it depends on 7 how close they were to the mike, on whether or not you 8 could hear it. But that video is -- it starts off with 9 some gentleman out there watering the grave sites, 10 apparently an employee, and is, I am guessing, it covers, 11 maybe, as much as 14 hours that day. 12 THE COURT: Well, then the video 13 does -- 14 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: So it's hard to 15 say, and our copy -- I don't know what the State's copy 16 is like -- our copy is not all so great on the video 17 part. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I would 19 like to point out to the Court, that I think felonious 20 conduct on the part of the police officers during an 21 investigation is always material. 22 It goes to the integrity of the 23 investigation. And, you know, whether they like it or 24 not, they are the ones that opened this up. We didn't go 25 into anything at the grave site. The prosecution did. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4409 1 And, you know, they have to take the 2 bad with the good. They were smiling and telling jokes 3 when this video was on for the jury. And now they have 4 got to take the corresponding responsibility of what this 5 has brought. 6 So, any time the investigation has 7 been compromised by felonious conduct on the part of the 8 officers, it's always admissible to the jury. And, I 9 would certainly caution the Court, or remind the Court, 10 that they can't take the Fifth on part of their 11 testimony. 12 They are like everybody else when it 13 comes to getting on the witness stand. They can't assert 14 the Fifth just to a certain matter. And say, "I don't 15 want to talk about that, and I want to hide behind the 16 Fifth Amendment." 17 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And not only on 18 the relevance issue, the Court has got to remember, that 19 Cron has testified that he decided within 20 minutes 20 that -- of the defendant's guilt, that the Rowlett Police 21 Department was informed of that, that Mr. Davis was on 22 the job within five days after that, and that this -- and 23 this whole focus, as I said in my opening statement, she 24 became the target in the rifle scope, at the beginning, 25 and the methodology and how Rowlett went about Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4410 1 investigating this, and choosing not to investigate other 2 things, is directly shown by going out and putting an 3 illegal bug out in a graveyard. 4 THE COURT: Okay. So you're using 5 this to impeach the officers; is that correct? 6 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I don't know 7 that impeach is the right -- 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Not exclusively. 9 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We're using it 10 to show what they did. It's just a simple fact of how 11 they investigated it. 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: But, Judge, once 13 again, they brought it up. We didn't go into this 14 matter. And now they have got to take the bad with the 15 good. 16 THE COURT: Let Mr. Hagler make his 17 objections. These are the real objections. 18 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Well, your Honor, a 19 couple things as far as the facts. They are arguing 20 irrelevancy, your Honor. 21 Again, I think Mr. Mosty has already 22 stated, that certainly it's relevant, in the fact that 23 the defendant was targeted in this case within 20 minutes 24 as being the assailant. 25 And, certainly, this would have some Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4411 1 relevancy as to the jury, in our showing that there is a 2 motive on the part of the police department to actively 3 pursue the defendant and to target her as the assailant 4 in this case. 5 Secondly, your Honor, they have -- 6 again, they, of course, have offered the tape. They made 7 the issue of the grave site matter in this case. They 8 have injected this matter in front of the jury. 9 Certainly, we're entitled to bring out all of the 10 circumstances surrounding the grave, the grave site 11 matters, you know. 12 Furthermore, is the fact that they 13 have made the issue of lack of remorse at the grave side 14 an issue, and we're entitled to elicit all of the 15 testimony from these officers. 16 I might mention, they're talking about 17 tapes and the video. Now, to my understanding, and I 18 don't know all of the facts, obviously, but there was an 19 open wire on this grave side. 20 There may well be matters other than 21 that which appears on the tape, and on the video 22 surveillance. Of course, the tape is the intercept 23 problem we have here. 24 But we don't know what all transpired 25 out there. We don't know who was privy and overheard all Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4412 1 of these oral conversations. 2 As I understand it, if the Court 3 denies us an opportunity to confront and cross examine 4 these witnesses, we're denied the opportunity of 5 eliciting all the facts and testimony surrounding the 6 grave side event, and incidents. And, I would further 7 submit to the Court, that the Court can't simply rely on 8 the blanket assertion by the State, that there is no 9 exculpatory statements made during any of these 10 intercepted conversations. 11 I think it's for the Court to make 12 that decision. It's for us to be able to elicit that 13 such information by means of cross examination and 14 confrontation. 15 Your Honor, but if the Court rules 16 that and prohibits us from cross examining the witnesses 17 concerning their knowledge, the conversations, the events 18 surrounding the illegal intercept of the conversations at 19 the grave side, that would constitute a violation of the 20 defendant's Fifth and Sixth rights under the U.S. 21 Constitution and the Fourteenth Amendment rights. And 22 Article 1, section 10 of the Texas Constitution, and 23 specifically the right to confront and cross examine the 24 witnesses concerning the events surrounding the illegal 25 intercept. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4413 1 Furthermore, your Honor, it would also 2 prevent us from going in, or offering in front of the 3 jury, the testimony regarding the credibility of the 4 witnesses, their motive and intent surrounding their 5 investigation in this case. 6 THE COURT: All right. Fine. The 7 Court finds -- that -- the Court holds this is improper 8 impeachment evidence. 9 The officers actions do not reflect 10 upon the officers -- the officer who has testified so 11 far. His actions do not reflect upon his character for 12 truthfulness or untruthfulness regarding his testimony in 13 this case. 14 Any recordings that may have been made 15 were not admitted as evidence, nor was there an attempt 16 to admit them as evidence. 17 For these reasons, I find that the 18 potential prejudice outweighs the probative value of this 19 evidence, and the defense is ordered not to go into it, 20 should these officers be recalled to the stand. 21 Now, if you want a running objection 22 on that, you may have it. 23 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Yes, your Honor. 24 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, we 25 can go into, for instance, things that refute, on that Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4414 1 tape, refute the inference that the State has done? 2 THE COURT: There was a videotape done 3 by Channel 5. I think everyone in the country has seen 4 out there. 5 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, you know 6 what they didn't see, was the funeral service. The State 7 has illegally intercepted the funeral service where they 8 stand around and pray. The State offers the Silly String 9 part of the day, and they have the prayer there, where 10 the first part of it is the prayer where they illegally 11 intercept a prayer at a grave side. And we can't offer 12 that? 13 THE COURT: Well, I think that has 14 already been offered. 15 MR. GREG DAVIS: You know, your 16 Honor -- 17 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We have a video 18 of it. 19 MR. GREG DAVIS: I don't think there 20 is any problem with Mr. Mosty or Mr. Mulder offering that 21 videotape. I mean, whatever was visually recorded out 22 there, we certainly don't have a problem with them doing 23 that. It's just the circumstances under which that was 24 gathered. You know, if they can show what happened out 25 there, if they want to show that videotape. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4415 1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: But we can't ask 2 the -- 3 MR. GREG DAVIS: So they have that 4 option. And they still get to show what they feel is 5 important for them to show to this jury. 6 THE COURT: Well, anyway, that is 7 fine. If you want to do that, that will be fine, but 8 that is the Court's ruling, and the Court will note your 9 objection. 10 You don't have to object in front of 11 the jury for any purposes. You will have a running 12 objection. And, at 9:00 o'clock we will proceed. 13 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Just so I am 15 abundantly clear on this, are you telling me that if I 16 recall Detective Jimmy Patterson, that I can't go into 17 this matter at all? 18 THE COURT: That's correct. 19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. 20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And we can't 21 even go into the motive of how they conducted their 22 investigation? 23 It's been a central theme of this case 24 from the beginning, is that these men went to the -- went 25 to the stage of illegal activities, to try to target in Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4416 1 on this lady. That has been the beginning of this case, 2 and it is exactly what this case is about, in it's 3 entirety. Is that they never did anything, other than 4 focus on Darlie Routier, and they wanted to do it so bad, 5 that they would violate state and federal law to do so. 6 And we are not allowed to go into that? 7 THE COURT: Well, the Court ruling 8 stands. Thank you. 9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, let me ask 10 this just for a little direction from the Court. Does 11 the Court intend to give the jury any explanation or 12 clarification, or just let it -- 13 THE COURT: Well, we will go over the 14 charge at the appropriate time. I'm happy to do that. 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I mean, you don't 16 intend to say anything to the jury. You know, he was 17 plucked from the witness stand, rather inappropriately, 18 and I take it the Court doesn't -- 19 THE COURT: Well, I think both sides 20 agreed with that. I don't think he was plucked from the 21 witness stand. 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, he refused 23 to answer any questions, Judge, until he had a chance to 24 talk to his lawyer. 25 THE COURT: I understand that. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4417 1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, if -- 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: If they call -- I 3 understand if I call the officers, I can't go into it. 4 If they call them, can I go into it as impeachment? 5 THE COURT: Well, certainly if any 6 door is opened. I don't think they will be calling the 7 officer, but they may very well do it. But we want to 8 stay out of that, because I am holding that that is not 9 relevant in this particular case. 10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I'll 11 suggest to the Court, that the door is opened if they 12 talk about any part of the investigation, because this 13 was part of the investigation. 14 THE COURT: Well, let's take that up 15 at the appropriate time. 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, you know, 17 Judge, it kind of depends on -- it has interrupted our 18 strategy in this case. And you know, I can go with it 19 either way. I don't care what the rules are, just as 20 long as I know what they are. If I understand what the 21 rules are, I can play by anybody's rules. 22 THE COURT: Well, the rule now is 23 this: Don't go into it. 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. I 25 understand that. But, are they going to call -- if they Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4418 1 are going to call the officers, I will be allowed to go 2 into it? 3 THE COURT: Well, anything, Mr. 4 Mulder, that is opened up by any examination, you will be 5 allowed to go into. That is correct. 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I would 7 suggest to the Court, that if they go into anything, 8 about an investigation, that this is part of the 9 investigation. 10 THE COURT: Well, we'll cover that at 11 the time that it comes. That may very well be the case. 12 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Is the Court 13 going to allow, for instance, Mr. Frosch to get up and 14 testify about some things, and then in the middle of it, 15 prohibit -- or take the Fifth? 16 THE COURT: The Court is going to 17 allow -- if Mr. Frosch is called, Mr. Frosch will 18 testify. 19 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Pardon me? 20 THE COURT: If Mr. Frosch is called, 21 he will testify. If the door is opened to anything, 22 certainly, you will be able to get into it. 23 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: So the Court is 24 going to let him get up and testify about some things, 25 and prohibit us from going into the full investigation? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4419 1 THE COURT: We are not going to go 2 into whatever happened at the grave side as regards to 3 the alleged recordings out there. 4 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, what 5 about the other officers who did it? Can we call them? 6 THE COURT: We will go each one 7 individually at the time. 8 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: All right. 9 THE COURT: Anything else? 10 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Just so I'm clear, 11 your Honor. You stated that, of course, we cannot 12 question them in front of the jury, but we also are 13 prohibited from questioning them during the hearing, as 14 to any and all statements. 15 THE COURT: You may question them 16 during the hearing. Do you want to question the officers 17 now? 18 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, we 19 want -- one thing we want to know is we want to know 20 everyone who was involved in this. 21 THE COURT: Well, can you give them 22 that information? 23 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And who knew 24 about it, participated in it, planned it. 25 MR. GREG DAVIS: That I don't know. I Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4420 1 don't know those facts. 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, maybe Mr. 3 Davis needs a lawyer. 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Maybe you do. 5 THE COURT: Well, I doubt that. 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I've got one. 7 THE COURT: I doubt that. I think 8 both sides -- all right, gentlemen, fine. Excuse me, go 9 ahead, Mr. Davis. 10 MR. GREG DAVIS: I was just going to 11 say, in this matter, so that we can all be clear, if Mr. 12 Mulder believes that the door has been opened, would you 13 please instruct him to approach the bench, discuss this 14 matter with you, before he begins to go through that 15 "open door," because we both know what he is going to do 16 here. He has done it in the past. 17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I'll know 18 when the door is open. 19 THE COURT: Both sides are so 20 instructed to approach the bench before you do that, if 21 that is necessary. 22 MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: Yes, sir. 23 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you. Yes, sir, 24 so we won't have a repeat of what he did on Friday. 25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I'll do Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4421 1 that if it's not clear. And there wasn't anything 2 Friday. There wasn't anything said Friday about this 3 business. 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, I'm talking about 5 the other agreement that we had that he broke on Friday.. 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: There wasn't any 7 agreement Friday, not to go into the fact that Patterson 8 was -- 9 THE COURT: Gentlemen, Friday has 10 passed. Friday has passed, and what occurred, occurred. 11 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Yeah, well, 12 yesterday -- 13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I didn't 14 make any agreement with them, not to mention that, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Mulder, 16 fine. 17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Y'all may have 18 had an agreement among yourselves, but I wasn't a party 19 to it. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder. We do not 21 have any agreements with the Court. Is that clear? 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Right. Well, I 23 wasn't a party to that agreement. I didn't have any 24 agreement with them. 25 THE COURT: We understand. Would you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4422 1 please modulate your voice. I can hear you. 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I understand. I 3 didn't have any agreement with them. The only agreement 4 I had with them, was that their witnesses would be 5 present until -- the ones under subpoena -- until I 6 agreed to excuse them. And I never made that agreement. 7 I told them I would exercise that agreement Friday. 8 THE COURT: The Court understands what 9 happened last Friday, and that is over and passed and 10 done with. We're not going to discuss that. 11 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, there is 12 also, for instance, a motion in limine prohibiting going 13 into breast implants that Mr. Davis went right through 14 yesterday without bothering to say, "Is the door open? 15 Can I go into this?" 16 And now we're supposed to abide by 17 these things and the State doesn't have to? 18 THE COURT: No. You all abide by 19 whatever motions are in the file. 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, 21 would the Court address that now? 22 THE COURT: Both sides are instructed 23 to stay within the motions of limine that are in there. 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, they 25 understood that, Judge. We went into it before the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4423 1 Court. You understood it, they understood it, but they 2 barged right in. 3 THE COURT: All right. Well, the 4 Court will instruct both sides to remain within the 5 motions in limine. You both know what they are. Let's 6 stay with it. If anybody does anything against it, well, 7 let's stand up and object. There was no objection 8 yesterday. 9 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, of course 10 not. 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All that would do 12 is call attention to it. That is why we filed the motion 13 in limine, so we don't have to object. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And that is why 16 Mr. Davis did it that way. 17 THE COURT: Gentlemen, gentlemen, we 18 are here this morning on the hearing on Officer Patterson 19 and Frosch. 20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, may I go 21 back to my question? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I would like to 24 know who all was involved in this? 25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, he said you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4424 1 can go into that. Let's call Patterson -- 2 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just a 3 minute. Calm down, Mr. Mulder. I can only talk to one 4 attorney at a time. 5 If the State knows who was involved in 6 it, you may please find out, and please advise the 7 defense. 8 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 9 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: May we call one 10 of these gentlemen and find out? 11 THE COURT: You may indeed. 12 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Mr. Patterson 13 is under oath, isn't he? 14 THE COURT: He is indeed. 15 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: May I 16 inquire -- 17 THE COURT: You may. Who was 18 involved -- I'll inquire. Who was involved in it? 19 MR. PATTERSON: I don't want to answer 20 that. 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge -- 22 THE COURT: Well, all right. 23 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, he either 24 answers or goes to jail, doesn't he? 25 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder, if I want Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4425 1 anything from you, I will ask you. Is that clear? 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, yes, sir. 3 THE COURT: Thank you very much. You 4 are refusing to answer that on the grounds that it may 5 tend to incriminate you; is that correct? 6 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 7 THE COURT: All right. Fine. 8 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: May we also 9 identify that Mr. Frosch says the same thing? 10 THE COURT: Mr. Frosch, is that your 11 answer? 12 MR. FROSCH: Yes, sir, it is. 13 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: So, now we 14 can't even find out who was involved? 15 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just a 16 minute. Just a minute, gentlemen. 17 All right. All right. The Court's 18 ruling is -- the Court's ruling stands as it is, as it 19 has been expressed. And if you object to that, we will 20 note your objection. 21 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: No. My inquiry 22 is, I want to know who else was involved. The State 23 ought to know, this is exculpatory evidence. This ought 24 to be turned over. 25 THE COURT: If the State knows who is Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4426 1 involved, please inform the defense. 2 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I mean, first, 3 there ought to be an investigation going on in Dallas 4 County as we speak about this. 5 THE COURT: Well, there may very well 6 be one, but right now, we're in a trial in Kerrville. We 7 have completed this hearing, and it's five minutes until 8 9:00, and at 9:00 o'clock I intend to continue the cross 9 examination of Darin Routier -- or the direct (sic) 10 examination by Mr. Davis. 11 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: When is the 12 State going to give me that information? I mean, it's 13 not going to do me much good in May. 14 THE COURT: Well, the State -- Mr. 15 Mosty, we understand that. Mr. Davis, should you learn 16 the information, give it to the defense as soon as 17 possible. 18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, I will. 19 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And are they 20 under a duty to inquire? 21 THE COURT: Yes, they are under a duty 22 to inquire. 23 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I just want to 24 be clear, because if he never asks him, he might never 25 know it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4427 1 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Mosty, I think 2 that Mr. Davis and Mr. Shook and Miss Wallace will ask. 3 All right. Thank you. These 4 proceedings are concluded. 5 6 (Whereupon, a short 7 Recess was taken, 8 After which time, 9 The proceedings were 10 Resumed on the record, 11 In the presence and 12 Hearing of the defendant, 13 But outside the presence 14 Of the jury, as follows:) 15 16 THE COURT: All right. Let's go back 17 on the record. Briefly, Mr. Hagler has a couple more 18 objections he wants to make. 19 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, I will 20 be very brief here with the Court. 21 Your Honor, just so that we are clear 22 on the ruling, your Honor, it's our understanding of the 23 ruling that both, of course, Frosch and Patterson have 24 invoked their Fifth Amendment privilege against 25 self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4428 1 We further understand the Court's 2 ruling, that in light of that invocation of the Fifth 3 Amendment right, that we're prohibited from inquiring 4 from those two officers, and I assume other officers who 5 may be involved in this intercept. 6 As to the: One, we are prohibited 7 from cross examining and questioning the officers 8 regarding the intercept, and all facts surrounding the 9 intercept. 10 THE COURT: That's correct. 11 MR. JOHN HAGLER: And furthermore, if 12 we were given the opportunity to question the officers, 13 we would go into matters such as the procedures utilized, 14 who initiated the -- who made the decision to initiate 15 the intercept, the individuals involved in the intercept, 16 how it was conducted, and any and all information that 17 was learned through the intercept, including matters, not 18 only those matters on the tape, but also matters that may 19 have been overheard but were not recorded by the 20 officers. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. JOHN HAGLER: And furthermore, 23 your Honor, we would also submit that the State has made 24 the assertion that there was no exculpatory matters on 25 the tape, and, again, we would urge that it's not for the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4429 1 State to make that decision. It's one that only the 2 Court can make, and the only one that we could bring to 3 light through cross examination and confrontation of 4 witnesses. 5 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 6 MR. JOHN HAGLER: And finally, your 7 Honor, we would ask for a mistrial, based on our lack of 8 opportunity to cross examine the witnesses regarding 9 this, and the fact that we cannot question Patterson 10 regarding these matters. 11 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 12 Now, had you made those objections prior to the ruling, 13 the Court's ruling would have been the same. Regarding 14 the motion for a mistrial, the motion for mistrial is 15 denied. With that in mind -- 16 MR. GREG DAVIS: Also, before the jury 17 comes in, if I could inform the Court, that during the 18 break, I delivered to Mr. Mulder and Mr. Mosty the names 19 of two officers who I was informed actually did the 20 taping. So they now have those names. 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I don't have 22 the -- I would like the names of the co-conspirators in 23 the record, if we might. 24 THE COURT: I think -- the names have 25 been delivered, Mr. Mulder. Thank you. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4430 1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: One point of 2 that delivery is, that these are Garland Police Officers, 3 which goes again, to show that they were not only -- not 4 only had Rowlett PD focused in, but they had focused in 5 with every other resource, and they brought in Garland PD 6 to do the illegal bug. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. 8 Now, I believe that Mr. Darin Routier 9 was on the stand on direct (sic) examination. 10 Mr. Biggerstaff, would you have him 11 step in, please? 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: One last thing, 13 Judge, if we might. 14 THE COURT: Oh, just a minute. Okay. 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Aside from the 16 two names that we understand are Michael, R-O-B-E-R-B-S, 17 Roberbs. Is that supposed to be a T? 18 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, I believe it's a 19 B. 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. 21 R-O-B-E-R-B-S. And Darin Baker. We want to know who 22 else knew of this plot. 23 THE COURT: Well, I doubt that there 24 are conspirators or a plot, but in any event, the Court 25 has directed Mr. Davis to give you the names available, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4431 1 which he has done, and that will conclude this hearing. 2 And have Mr. Routier step in, please. 3 All right. 4 5 (Whereupon, the jury 6 Was returned to the 7 Courtroom, and the 8 Proceedings were 9 Resumed on the record, 10 In open court, in the 11 Presence and hearing 12 Of the defendant, 13 As follows:) 14 15 THE COURT: All right. Good morning, 16 ladies and gentlemen. 17 Let the record reflect that all 18 parties in the trial are present, and the jury is seated. 19 And we will continue with the direct (sic) examination of 20 Mr. Routier by Mr. Davis. You may proceed. 21 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you, Judge. 22 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4432 1 Whereupon, 2 3 DARIN ROUTIER, 4 5 was recalled as a witness, for the Defense, having been 6 previously duly sworn by the Court, to speak the truth, 7 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined 8 and testified further in open court, as follows: 9 10 11 CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed) 12 13 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 14 Q. Mr. Routier, yesterday, do you recall 15 that we talked about your Jaguar? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And, yesterday, do you recall telling 18 me what was wrong with that Jaguar? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What was wrong with it? 21 A. There was a tube that was going to 22 the -- one of the diaphragms that goes up into the 23 transmission. 24 Q. Okay. I believe that you had told me 25 yesterday, that it cost about three dollars to have that Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4433 1 car fixed, correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now, on July the 1st, when you came 4 down to the courthouse and you were sworn in, do you 5 recall that we talked about the Jaguar at that time? 6 A. Yes, sir, I said that the transmission 7 had gone out. 8 Q. Okay. By the way, last night, did you 9 have a chance to go over your prior testimony? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Did you talk to any lawyers 12 about your testimony? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Nobody has talked to you? 15 A. I talked to Mr. Mulder about my sister 16 being -- just came in town. 17 Q. In July, when you came down, you told 18 me that the transmission was out, and it was going to 19 cost about three thousand dollars to fix that car, right? 20 A. I don't remember if it was three 21 thousand. 22 Q. Okay. About three thousand? 23 A. Well, I think it may have been more 24 around eight hundred. 25 Q. Okay. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4434 1 A. It was a Turbo 400. 2 Q. Let me show you page 16 of that 3 transcript. Do you see where I said, "Would it be fairly 4 expensive to repair the automobile just to get it 5 running?" 6 Do you see your answer, "About three 7 thousand dollars". 8 A. Yes, sir. (Witness nodding head 9 affirmatively.) 10 Q. Okay. Was that your answer back on 11 July the 1st? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. And, in July, do you remember telling 14 me that you only had thirty-two hundred dollars available 15 to you? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you remember that? 18 A. Oh, at the bond hearing? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. I remember saying that, yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Now, if we can, let's talk 22 about your business for a while. Yesterday, Mr. Mulder 23 asked you certain questions about your business, how it 24 was doing in 1996. And if you could, tell me again what 25 you projected your earnings to be for 1996 for your Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4435 1 business. 2 A. I would project probably around a 3 quarter of a million dollars. 4 Q. Okay. Quarter of a million dollars. 5 Okay. Do you know what your income was through the first 6 five months of 1996, sir? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. Okay. No ballpark figure? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. How were you doing this projection of 11 $250,000? 12 A. Just based on the first six months, I 13 did a hundred and eleven thousand. We would have had 14 June, July and August of our biggest months, about 40 or 15 50 thousand dollars during those three months. 16 Q. Of course, if your expenses are higher 17 than your income, it doesn't really matter how much you 18 are earning if you are spending more than you take in, 19 does it? 20 A. It really doesn't matter. 21 Q. I mean, it's not good, is it? 22 A. No, but we weren't spending more than 23 we were bringing in. 24 Q. Okay. Are you sure about that? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4436 1 Q. Okay. Have you looked over your 2 business records? 3 A. Not since -- no. 4 Q. Okay. Is it possible that you could 5 be wrong about that? 6 A. It's possible. 7 Q. Yesterday, when Mr. Mulder was asking 8 you questions about your business situation, what records 9 had you gone over to tell us about the condition of your 10 business? 11 A. Just looking at my books. 12 Q. Okay. Bank account records, also? 13 A. No, I have a CPA for that. 14 15 16 (Whereupon, the following 17 mentioned item was 18 marked for 19 identification only 20 after which time the 21 proceedings were 22 resumed on the record 23 in open court, as 24 follows:) 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4437 1 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, at this 2 time, we are going to offer State's Exhibit 50-B, which 3 is the remainder of the Bank One records that were 4 previously admitted as State's Exhibit 50. 5 50-B contains the bank records 6 pertaining to Testnec. These have also been on file more 7 than 14 days as a part of the other records. 8 THE COURT: When you do talk, please 9 speak loudly. The last two jurors are indicating that 10 they can't hear you. Okay. 11 Make sure that you speak loud enough 12 so that gentlemen there and the lady in the pink back 13 there can hear you. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 15 THE COURT: Can you hear that? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, this 19 appears to be all 1995 records. 20 MR. GREG DAVIS: It's right here. 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, if you're 22 ready, we're ready to be heard on this. 23 THE COURT: I'm ready. 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I don't 25 think the records from 1995 are relevant or material. We Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4438 1 have offered his income tax return that shows he grossed 2 263 thousand. Are they suggesting that he overstated his 3 income so he could pay more taxes? 4 THE COURT: I think the exhibits will 5 speak for themselves. Are you objecting to the exhibit? 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I object to 7 those. I don't object to the -- so far as they go, to 8 the records in 1996. 9 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, your Honor, I 10 think, at this time, that we will agree to withdraw any 11 bank records pertaining to 1995, and simply then offer as 12 State's Exhibit 50-B, the records pertaining to 1996. 13 And in State's Exhibit 50-C, we will separate out 1995 14 and offer those for record purposes only. 15 THE COURT: Is that satisfactory? 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, let me take 17 a look at these, Judge. 18 19 (Whereupon, the following 20 mentioned item was 21 marked for 22 identification only 23 as State's Exhibit No. 50-C 24 after which time the 25 proceedings were Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4439 1 resumed on the record 2 in open court, as 3 follows:) 4 5 THE COURT: All right. So 50-C will 6 be the '95 records offered for record purposes only, not 7 to be shown to the jury. 8 Any objections to that? Anybody want 9 to object to that? Mr. Hagler? 10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Excuse me, Judge. 11 I was trying to do five things at one time. 12 THE COURT: We appreciate your 13 efforts, but are you going to object to the record 14 purposes only of 50-C? 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: No, not for 16 record purposes only. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. All right. 18 State's Exhibit 50-C is admitted for record purposes 19 only. 20 21 (Whereupon, the above 22 mentioned item was 23 received in evidence 24 for record purposes 25 only, after which time, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4440 1 the proceedings were 2 resumed on the record, 3 as follows:) 4 5 THE COURT: All right. Any objection 6 to the 1996 records? 7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: No, we have no 8 objection. 9 THE COURT: State's Exhibit 50-B is 10 admitted. 11 12 (Whereupon, the item 13 Heretofore mentioned 14 Was received in evidence 15 As State's Exhibit No. 50-B 16 For all purposes, 17 After which time, the 18 Proceedings were resumed 19 As follows:) 20 21 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 22 Q. Mr. Routier, again, have you had an 23 opportunity recently to look over the records that I am 24 holding from Bank One? 25 A. No, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4441 1 Q. Okay. And again, now showing you only 2 those portions that have been admitted as State's Exhibit 3 50-B, do you recognize the first page as being a summary 4 for your transactions between January 1st and January 5 31st, 1996? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. All right. And do we see that 8 your deposits for January were twenty-two thousand, nine 9 hundred and fourteen dollars and sixty-nine cents, is 10 that correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Checks paid out of your account were 13 twenty-one thousand, nine hundred and fourteen dollars 14 and forty-six cents; is that correct also? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. As we go to the period of February the 17 1st through February the 29th, do we show deposits of ten 18 thousand, two hundred and eighty-two dollars and 19 ninety-three cents, checks paid out of fifteen thousand, 20 three hundred and forty dollars and sixty cents? 21 A. Yes, sir, being a balance of $78.47. 22 Q. Right. And, for the period of March 23 1st through March 31st, do we see that you had deposits 24 of fifteen thousand, two hundred and fifty-four dollars 25 and seventy-eight cents, and checks paid out of twelve Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4442 1 thousand, six hundred and thirty-nine dollars and 2 seventy-seven cents? 3 A. Yes, sir, with a balance of five 4 thousand, three hundred and two dollars. 5 Q. Okay. That is your ending balance, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And, for the period of April the 1st 9 through April the 30th, do we have you with deposits of 10 twelve thousand, five hundred and thirty-three dollars; 11 and checks paid out of thirteen thousand, three hundred 12 and fifty-eight dollars and one cent? 13 A. Yes, sir, with an ending balance of 14 four thousand, four hundred and fifteen dollars. 15 Q. Okay. And for the last period shown 16 of May the 1st through May 31st, do we have deposits of 17 thirteen thousand, three hundred and ninety-one dollars 18 and forty-seven cents, checks paid out of fourteen 19 thousand, forty-four dollars and eighty-two cents, and 20 your ending balance on May 31st was three thousand, six 21 hundred and ninety-eight dollars and forty-four cents; is 22 that right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Mr. Routier, are you aware, that when 25 you add up the deposits, and the checks paid out, that Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4443 1 your deposits for the first five periods there shown were 2 seventy-four thousand, three hundred and seventy-six 3 dollars and eighty-seven cents, and your checks paid out, 4 if you total those up, are you aware that they total out 5 to seventy-seven thousand, two hundred and ninety-seven 6 dollars and sixty-six cents? 7 A. No, sir, I was not aware of that. 8 Q. Are you aware, that when you look at 9 the first five months that actually, you had a deficit of 10 nearly three thousand dollars? Are you aware of that? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Okay. You know Willie Short, don't 13 you? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Willie Short was your landlord? 16 A. Yes, he is. 17 Q. You had a rent each month of $525 18 dollars; correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Was that due on the first of the 21 month? 22 A. On the 1st or the 15th. 23 Q. Okay. Do you recall Willie Short 24 coming by or talking to you on June the 5th about being 25 late for your rent for the month of June? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4444 1 A. Not in June. I don't recall. 2 Q. You don't recall? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Were you behind on your rent out 5 there? 6 A. We're four months behind now. 7 Q. I'm talking about in June of 1996? 8 A. Just that one month. 9 Q. So you're one month behind on the 10 rent? 11 A. It was not due until the 15th, or late 12 on the 15th. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Routier, I want to direct 14 your attention back to June the 8th of 1996 when you went 15 to the Rowlett Police Department with your wife. Do you 16 recall that date? 17 A. Vaguely. 18 Q. Okay. Well, yesterday when Mr. Mulder 19 asked you about it, do you recall telling him that the 20 Rowlett Police Department asked you to give them a 21 statement? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Do you remember giving that statement 24 to them? 25 A. Yes, sir, before the viewing. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4445 1 Q. Okay. When you gave that statement, 2 did you, in fact, give that in your own handwriting? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Okay. Do you recall it being six 5 pages long? 6 A. I don't remember how long it was. I 7 haven't seen it since. 8 Q. Right. Okay. 9 10 (Whereupon, the following 11 mentioned item was 12 marked for 13 identification only 14 as State's Exhibit No. 141, 15 after which time the 16 proceedings were 17 resumed on the record 18 in open court, as 19 follows:) 20 21 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 22 Q. Let me show you what for record 23 purposes has been marked as State's Exhibit 141. And if 24 you would, take a couple of moments and look over that 25 statement. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4446 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Okay. Do you recognize that as the 3 statement you gave to the police? 4 A. Yes, sir. It's a vague description. 5 Q. Why don't you just keep it up there? 6 I may be referring to it. We have another copy down 7 here. 8 Mr. Routier, when you gave that 9 statement to the police, would it be fair to say that the 10 purpose of giving that statement was to try to help the 11 police find the person who killed your two children; is 12 that right? 13 A. Yes, sir. That is why I did it. 14 Q. All right. Would it also be fair to 15 say that that statement was given only two days after 16 this attack occurred at your home; right? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay. And I assume, that when you 19 gave that statement, were you making your very best 20 effort to be as truthful and as honest, and as complete 21 as you could possibly be in that statement? 22 A. Well, I tried. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. Looking at that statement -- 24 yesterday, do you recall Mr. Mulder asking you about 25 discussions that you had with your wife that evening on Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4447 1 June 5th? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you remember yesterday that you 4 told us that you talked with her about trips that y'all 5 were planning? A trip to Pennsylvania, a trip to Cancun 6 that your wife was planning to take, and some plans that 7 y'all had in the future; correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. We talked about a lot of 9 things in those hours. 10 Q. Okay. But yesterday, when you told us 11 about your discussion, you didn't tell us all of the 12 things that y'all discussed that night, did you? 13 A. Well, it says here that I was talking 14 about -- about getting the boys into playing baseball. 15 Q. Well, isn't it true that, it says 16 there in the statement, on June the 8th when you gave 17 this to the police, that what you said about that 18 discussion is: "We talked about the business, bills, and 19 how Darlie was having a hard time with taking care of the 20 babies," and then you have in parenthesis, "all today". 21 That was also part of the discussion 22 that night, wasn't it? 23 A. Yeah, it was some. 24 Q. So that, that discussion wasn't all 25 positive, was it? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4448 1 A. Actually, it was. 2 Q. Well, the problems that she was having 3 taking care of the boys that day. I mean, she was 4 discussing that that she was having a problem. It was 5 something that was causing her to have a problem, wasn't 6 it? 7 A. No, sir, that was taken out of 8 context. 9 Q. Well, I'm just reading the sentence. 10 Have I misread that sentence? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Okay. You -- did you not use the 13 term, "Was having a hard time taking care of the babies 14 all today," those were your words, weren't they? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Bills, I mean those are bills 17 that you have to pay, correct? 18 A. Well, we were talking about the 19 business like we do every night. Talking about the 20 bills, and how many people owed me money, what phone 21 calls I needed to make the next day, to make sure that 22 those bills, you know, got taken care of. 23 Q. Having been self-employed myself, it's 24 important that you get paid, isn't it? 25 A. Yes, you can't survive without it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4449 1 Q. If you don't get paid, you have to 2 close the door, don't you? 3 A. Well, I have been in business for 4 seven years, and doing okay so far. I have been able to 5 salvage it after this. 6 Q. All right. So, you talked about the 7 trips, you talked about the business, the bills, about 8 how she's having a hard time with the boys. 9 As you look at that statement there, 10 yesterday you told us on direct examination, about where 11 Darlie was during the time that you were giving CPR to 12 Devon. 13 As you look through the statement that 14 you gave on June the 8th, can you point us to a -- well, 15 let me just ask you: In that statement, did you tell the 16 police that Darlie was with you while you were giving CPR 17 to Devon? 18 A. Yes, I did. He said he was going to 19 take notes on what I couldn't remember. I told him 20 that -- 21 Q. I'm sorry. You may have you 22 misunderstood me. 23 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Excuse me, Judge, 25 we have been through this yesterday. He gets a chance to Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4450 1 complete a sentence. 2 THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Mulder. 3 We understand, Mr. Mulder. Ask the question, again, 4 please. 5 MR. GREG DAVIS: I was asking about 6 the written statement. 7 THE COURT: Ask your question again, 8 please. 9 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm asking about the 10 written statement. 11 THE COURT: What was your answer going 12 to be? 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know, I forgot 14 what the question was. 15 THE COURT: Let's re-ask the question. 16 17 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 18 Q. I'm talking about the written 19 statement that you have before you. 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Your Honor, 23 excuse me. That is a different question 24 THE COURT: Well, the witness had 25 forgotten. We're going to go ahead. Ask the next Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4451 1 question, please. 2 3 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 4 Q. Okay. Sir, would you look through the 5 written statement in front of you, and tell me, whether 6 or not you told the police in that written statement on 7 June the 8th, that your wife was next to you as you 8 performed CPR on Devon? 9 A. No, I don't see that in here. 10 Actually, there was a lot of details not in here. 11 Q. That is one of the details that you 12 left out, wasn't it? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Matter of fact, isn't it true that 15 when you're talking about doing CPR on Devon, you're 16 talking about blowing into the holes in his chest. What 17 you actually said on June the 8th was, "I looked over at 18 Darlie and she was on the phone calling 911." Isn't that 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, sir, she was all over the place. 21 Q. Of course, when you gave that 22 statement, Mr. Routier, back on June the 8th, we didn't 23 have the DNA results back on her T-shirt yet, did we? 24 A. No, sir, and I was also in shock. 25 Q. So when you gave the statement, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4452 1 didn't know that your older boy's blood cast off was on 2 her T-shirt, did you? 3 A. I still didn't know that. 4 Q. And, when you spoke with Jamie 5 Johnson, the CPS worker, you still didn't know that 6 Devon's blood was on your wife's T-shirt, did you? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you told 9 Jamie Johnson about her activities while you were 10 performing CPR on Devon? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Do you remember talking with her about 13 how you were trying to blow more air into Devon's mouth, 14 and do you remember telling her, that at this point, you 15 said: "Darlie was calling 911 in the background?" 16 Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson 17 that? 18 A. Yes, sir. When I went over to him the 19 first time, that is the way it was. 20 Q. You never did tell Jamie Johnson that 21 your wife was standing next to you, or by you at any time 22 while you were doing CPR on Devon, did you? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. Now, again, I'm referring back to the 25 voluntary statement that you gave there, the six pages Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4453 1 before you. 2 Mr. Routier, can you look through that 3 statement, please, sir, and tell me whether or not in 4 that six pages that you hand wrote, whether or not you 5 told the police at any point in that statement that your 6 wife gave you towels while you were doing CPR on Devon? 7 A. I remember we talked about that on 8 February 12th. 9 Q. I'm sorry. I'm looking here on this 10 statement that you gave to the police on June the 8th. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. In that six page statement, sir, do 13 you say anything about Darlie Routier getting towels? 14 A. No, sir, I skipped right over it. 15 Q. So that is another detail that you did 16 not put in your statement; is that right? 17 A. Yes, sir, but it didn't mean it didn't 18 happen. 19 Q. And, if you would, would you look 20 through that six page statement and tell me whether or 21 not you told the police in your handwriting there, that 22 the defendant placed a towel on Damon's back? 23 A. No, sir, there's a lot of things 24 missing. 25 Q. Well, on that point then is that also Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4454 1 a detail that you forgot the fact that your wife put a 2 towel on Damon's back? That's not in there, is it? 3 A. No, sir, it's not in this statement. 4 Q. Okay. And at the time that you gave 5 that statement, would it be fair to say that you didn't 6 know that Damon's blood would be found on your wife's 7 T-shirt either, did you? 8 A. No, sir, I didn't know that. 9 Q. And yesterday during your testimony 10 with one of us, either Mr. Mulder or myself, you 11 mentioned your wife going over to the sink in the 12 kitchen. Do you recall that? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. Would you look through those 15 six pages that are in your own handwriting, and tell me, 16 sir, whether or not on June the 8th, just two days after 17 this event, you told the police that your wife went over 18 to the sink that night? 19 A. Chris Frosch was very specific to tell 20 me not to say anything about what she was doing, only 21 what I was doing. 22 Q. Well, in the statement on page 3 don't 23 you say, "She told them that he went out in the garage"? 24 A. On which page? 25 Q. Page 3. I mean, there are a lot of Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4455 1 references to what she did out there that night, weren't 2 there? Do you see "I told them that my babies were 3 stabbed, and she told them that he went out in the 4 garage." 5 A. "I looked over and Darlie was on the 6 phone calling 911. I ran over to Damon laying on the 7 floor in the hallway between the wall, and the side of 8 the couch near the bathroom. He had no pulse, but I 9 could not see any injuries." 10 Q. Okay. So, on that one page you have 11 the fact that she called 911, you have the fact that she 12 is relating to the police officers that the intruder went 13 out in the garage. And on that one page alone, you have 14 got her doing two things, don't you? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. So my question again to you is: 17 Is there anything in that six page statement, sir, about 18 your wife going to the sink? 19 A. No, sir, not in this statement. I 20 believe there is another statement besides this one. 21 Q. Who did you give that statement to? 22 A. To the police. 23 Q. A written statement? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Okay. And, what day did you give a Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4456 1 written statement to the police? 2 A. I believe on the 10th. 3 Q. Well, on the 10th, are you referring 4 to a diagram that you drew for the police on June the 5 10th? 6 A. Chris Frosch, we went back and forth 7 several times, he said he was taking notes on everything 8 that I was telling him. I kept telling him more 9 information as I remembered. 10 Q. Well, so that I am clear then, when 11 you talk about a statement on the 10th, you are simply 12 talking about notes that Detective Frosch may have taken 13 during the conversation that you had with him, correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. You are not talking about another 16 statement in your handwriting, such as the one that you 17 gave on June the 8th? You're not talking about that, are 18 you? 19 A. No, sir. There was a supplement to 20 this report. 21 Q. And, on the 10th, you did do a diagram 22 on the 10th though, didn't you? 23 A. I believe so, yes, sir. 24 Q. In which he asked you to show him how 25 your wife was positioned when you last saw her on the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4457 1 couch; correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Where Damon was when you last saw him; 4 correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Where Devon was positioned on the 7 floor when you last saw him; correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And, where Damon was when you came 10 downstairs and came in the Roman room, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. And he tried to make sure 12 that everything that I did, and what she did was separate 13 from our statements, and that we didn't discuss anything 14 about what we were talking about. 15 He said that he only wanted to know 16 what I did, and what I saw, and what I glanced at. 17 Q. Well, for instance on page 5 then, I 18 guess that Detective Frosch must have been very 19 disappointed, when you told him that she said, "Darin, 20 you have to promise me you will find this man. He killed 21 our babies." 22 Again, you are not talking about what 23 you did, you are talking about what she is saying to you 24 and what she is doing; correct? Was Detective Frosch 25 upset when you did that? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4458 1 A. Probably. We were an hour and a half 2 late for the viewing of the boys. 3 Q. Of course, also in this -- of course, 4 also on this page 2, you made a mistake again of telling 5 Dectective Frosch what your wife was saying or doing. 6 Also, do you see there where you related to him that she 7 was yelling, "Devon, Devon, oh, my God, Devon"? 8 A. As I was running down the stairs, yes, 9 sir. 10 Q. Right. Was Detective Frosch upset 11 when you did that? 12 A. I don't really know. We never talked 13 about the statement. 14 Q. And yesterday, did I understand you to 15 say that she was giving you wet towels? That she was 16 wetting the towels in the sink? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. What was the purpose of getting a wet 19 towel as opposed to just a towel that you could use to 20 try to absorb the blood or stop the bleeding? 21 A. Well, I don't really know. A person 22 with first aid knows that you usually use a dry towel, 23 but you have to have that experience in order to find out 24 that it's not good to wet any towels. It's a natural 25 instinct. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4459 1 Q. From your viewpoint though, that 2 didn't really seem to be the right thing to do though, 3 did it? It's not what you would have preferred, right? 4 A. Well, I don't really know if it really 5 mattered. 6 Q. A dry towel would have been better 7 though? 8 A. Probably, if it could have helped. 9 Q. Now, I want to ask you: How long did 10 you sit down and read -- and write this statement out? 11 Do you remember about what time? I'm not talking about 12 exact minutes, but just give me a ballpark figure on the 13 amount of time that you spent writing this statement out. 14 A. I don't know. I mean, it looks real 15 good in the beginning, and then you can almost see my 16 anger as I am writing it. It gets really sloppy and 17 sloppy. And, just guessing, I don't know, maybe, a half 18 hour. Frosch gave me a break in between, to let me relax 19 a little bit. I remember being sick that whole day. 20 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about this dark 21 car that you saw. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. That you are aware of. You were aware 24 of that on June the 5th, right? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4460 1 Q. Had you all been receiving any 2 threats, or any sort of threatening gestures toward any 3 member of your family? 4 A. No, we had been getting a lot of phone 5 calls, hang up phone calls, that we just thought maybe it 6 was because of Devon getting out of school, he gave his 7 phone number out to every kid in his class. 8 Q. So, you are getting the phone calls, 9 you see this car. Seeing this car on the 5th did not 10 concern you, did it? 11 A. It didn't concern me, no. 12 Q. Because, in fact, you had an alarm 13 system on your house, didn't you? 14 A. Yes, sir, we did. 15 Q. Okay. But that evening it was not 16 turned on, was it? 17 A. I never set my alarm in my house. 18 Q. Okay. And that is true on the 5th, it 19 wasn't turned on, was it? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. The defendant was aware that it was 22 off that night; correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. We never set it. If you're not safe Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4461 1 at home, where are you safe at? 2 Q. And that evening when you left the 3 garage, in fact, you decided to leave the window up, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. You would not have done those things, 7 you wouldn't have left the window up and left the alarm 8 off if you really thought there was a threat to somebody 9 in your household, would you? 10 A. No, sir. I wouldn't do it purposely. 11 Q. What is the first version of the 12 attack that the defendant gave to you? What did she 13 first tell you happened out there on that evening? 14 A. Just that she had felt Devon -- Damon 15 waking her up saying, "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy." And then 16 she looks up over her and she sees a glimpse of this man 17 going towards -- I don't know how, probably, maybe at the 18 island, I don't know -- going from the kitchen, probably 19 two to three seconds of a glimpse of this man going into 20 the utility room and then gone. 21 Q. I want to make sure that -- I want to 22 be clear about what you said. You said that she said 23 that she felt Damon touch her? 24 A. Touch her on the shoulder and he woke 25 her up. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4462 1 Q. Okay. And he was saying something to 2 her? 3 A. "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy." 4 Q. Okay. And, she then woke up and saw a 5 man walking away through the kitchen? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And he then walked into the utility 8 room? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. And, what did she say that she 11 did as this man got up and walked away from her into the 12 utility room? 13 A. She said that he had already gone out 14 the utility room, and then she went around towards him, 15 and Damon was standing right beside her, and she asked 16 him to stay back, and she walked across the room, across 17 the kitchen, and when she looked down, there was a knife 18 in the -- right there in the doorway, and she said that 19 she reached down to pick it up and when she did, her neck 20 just spewed blood all over the floor. That is when she 21 realized that she was cut. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And she walks back and turns on the 24 light, and then she sees Devon face up, and then she just 25 goes into hysterics. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4463 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Screaming, "Devon, Devon, Devon". 3 Q. Does that pretty much pick it up where 4 you start your statement, where you hear her saying, 5 "Devon, Devon, Devon," you come downstairs; right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. When did she first tell you 8 that story? 9 A. Probably at the hospital, or later 10 that afternoon. I couldn't be in the room with her for 11 longer than 10 or 15 minutes at a time. 12 Q. All right. So sometime of the 13 afternoon of June the 6th? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And, I assume that you have talked 16 with her since then about what happened out there that 17 night, haven't you? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. And in your discussions with 20 her, has she ever told you a different version of what 21 happened? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. And, again, just an estimate, but 24 about how many times have you talked with her about what 25 happened that night? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4464 1 A. An estimate? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. A lot. 4 Q. And -- 5 A. Two hundred, three hundred, five 6 hundred, I have no idea. 7 Q. So I mean, it's -- 8 A. Same thing over and over and over 9 again. It's like a broken record. 10 Q. Mr. Routier, by the time that you 11 talked with Jamie Johnson, certainly your wife had 12 already told you this, right? 13 A. Oh, yes, sir. 14 Q. Probably had told you several times 15 about what had happened to her? 16 A. I'm sure she had, yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you told 18 Jamie Johnson concerning the version that your wife had 19 given you of the attack? 20 A. Do I remember? No. 21 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying to her 22 that you told Jamie Johnson that Darlie told you that she 23 woke up because there was weight on her legs and the 24 intruder supposedly was sitting on her legs? Do you 25 remember telling Jamie Johnson that that is the version Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4465 1 that your wife gave to you about this attack? 2 A. We didn't know if that was really true 3 or not. We didn't know if that was a dream. 4 Q. Well, Jamie Johnson, when you 5 discussed this incident with her, this is the version 6 that you gave to Jamie Johnson, wasn't it? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. So, when you talked with Jamie 9 Johnson, you didn't give her the correct version of what 10 your wife had told you, did you? 11 A. We didn't know -- I mean, I wasn't 12 there when it happened, so I don't know what exactly 13 happened. I just know what she told me and what she told 14 me was that she woke up with Damon tugging on her. 15 Q. You never told that to Jamie Johnson 16 though, did you? 17 A. I don't recall. About that Damon woke 18 her up? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. I would think I would, that has never 21 changed. 22 Q. Well, but as you sit there on the 23 stand right now, you don't know whether you told her that 24 or not, do you? 25 A. I don't know what I said to Jamie Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4466 1 Johnson. 2 Q. Do you remember describing to Jamie 3 Johnson how the attacker would have to cut Darlie's neck, 4 and how he would have to get past her breasts in order to 5 get at her neck? Do you remember telling Jamie Johnson 6 that? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. And do you remember telling Jamie 9 Johnson that your wife would have been face-to-face with 10 this attacker? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Mr. Routier, again going back to 13 Corrine Wells, again, do you recall Corrine Wells is the 14 individual, the lady that lives there at the house that 15 you used to live at on Bond Street? Do you remember 16 that? 17 A. Yes, sir, I didn't know her name. 18 Q. Right. Okay. Do you remember when 19 you went over to talk with her on December the 3rd that, 20 in fact, you went into your wife's version of the attack 21 with Corrine Wells also, didn't you? 22 A. Well, I had a good talk with her. 23 Q. And it included what your wife had 24 told you about the attack, correct? 25 A. I don't think she remembers any of the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4467 1 attack. 2 Q. Well, my question to you is: Did you 3 tell Corrine Wells what your wife had related to you 4 about the attack? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So, you did not tell Corrine Wells 7 that the man was on top of her, and was intending to rape 8 her when she woke up? You didn't tell Corrine Wells 9 that? 10 A. That would be my assumption. 11 Q. From what your wife had told you? 12 A. No. My assumption of everything that 13 I know. I know everything about this case. 14 Q. Well, let me just ask you then: Did 15 you tell Corrine Wells that the man was on top of your 16 wife and was intending to rape her? Did you say that to 17 Corrine Wells? 18 A. I said that could very well be. 19 Q. So that is a yes? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Did you also tell Corrine Wells that 22 what they had read in the paper about the boys saving 23 Darlie's life by waking her up was not true, and in fact, 24 the boys didn't save her life? 25 A. I did not say that. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4468 1 Q. Do you remember telling Corrine Wells 2 that the boys couldn't save her life because their lungs 3 had been collapsed by the stabbing? 4 A. No, sir, I did not say that. 5 Q. And do you remember telling Corrine 6 Wells, in fact, that a 300 pound man did this to Darlie? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. So those statements about the boys not 9 saving her life, and about a 300 pound man attacking 10 Darlie, those statements aren't true, are they? 11 A. We know that Damon saved Darlie's 12 life. 13 Q. Okay. Well, that is not what you told 14 Corrine Wells though, is it? 15 A. I don't remember what I said to her. 16 Q. Well, that was a pretty long 17 conversation that you had with her too, wasn't it? 18 A. Yes, we had a good talk. 19 Q. About an hour and a half to two hours 20 over there at her house, correct? 21 A. She was showing me what they had done 22 to the house since I had left there and how much they 23 were enjoying it, and also it brought back memories of 24 when the kids were babies. 25 Q. Right. Do you remember telling Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4469 1 Corrine Wells about your wife's necklace? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. About how that necklace is 4 actually the thing that saved her life? 5 A. I know that the necklace was embedded 6 into her neck. 7 Q. How do you know it was embedded into 8 her neck? 9 A. Because I saw it. 10 Q. Where did you see it? 11 A. When she came to the front door and 12 paramedics were bringing her out. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. She took her hand like this and she 15 goes, "Darin, I'm cut." She pulled that thing down, and 16 I mean a gap in her neck was that wide, muscles, tendons, 17 veins, everything. 18 Q. That necklace was cut? 19 A. The necklace was inside of there. I 20 don't know if it was cut. 21 Q. Okay. In fact, that necklace wasn't 22 cut at all, was it? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. She was wearing that necklace that 25 night, a man cut her neck, and yet, there wasn't a single Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4470 1 thing done with that necklace, was there? 2 A. It was a rope chain. 3 Q. That's right. 4 A. It's my understanding that there is a 5 nick in it. 6 Q. There is a nick in it? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Do you think you would recognize that 9 necklace if you saw it? 10 A. Yes, sir, I would like to see it. 11 Q. Okay. 12 13 THE COURT: This is 142? 14 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, sir. This will 15 be State's Exhibit 26. 16 THE COURT: 26? 17 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 20 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 21 Q. Mr. Routier, I'm handing you State's 22 Exhibit 26, and if you will look at that, please, sir, 23 and tell me whether or not you recognize that to be your 24 wife's necklace? 25 A. Yes, sir, it is. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4471 1 Q. Okay. 2 3 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, at this 4 time we'll offer State's Exhibit No. 26. 5 THE COURT: Any objection? 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We have no 7 objection. 8 THE COURT: State's Exhibit 26 is 9 admitted. 10 11 (Whereupon, the item 12 Heretofore mentioned 13 Was received in evidence 14 As State's Exhibit No. 26 15 For all purposes, 16 After which time, the 17 Proceedings were resumed 18 As follows:) 19 20 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 21 Q. Mr. Routier, looking at the necklace, 22 the clasps are still intact, are they not? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Okay. No visible defects to this 25 necklace, are there? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4472 1 A. Let me see it again. 2 Q. Okay. Just take your time. 3 A. Right there. 4 Q. Okay. You've indicated a spot right 5 there; is that right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. Now, again, your wife was still 8 wearing the necklace when you saw her, correct? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. It was still around her neck, right? 11 A. Yes, sir. It was embedded into her 12 neck. 13 Q. The pendant that we see here, the 14 diamond pendant, that was still attached when you saw it, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes, I would assume so. 17 Q. Just like it is today in Court? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. The cat that y'all had, the big 20 cat, what was the cat's name? 21 A. Bear. 22 Q. Okay. And that evening that cat was 23 in the cage in the family room? 24 A. Yes, sir, he was. 25 Q. Okay. And I don't recall what you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4473 1 said about the cat's disposition. It was not good 2 though, was it? It's a pretty feisty cat, wasn't it? 3 A. Yeah, he is. 4 Q. When strangers came around that cat, 5 did he take to strangers well? 6 A. Well, he was caged so he couldn't get 7 at you, but he just -- well, if you aggravated him, he 8 would kind of get at you, but -- 9 Q. How big was that cat? 10 A. Oh, probably, just guessing, probably 11 15 or 16 pounds, and he was only a year old. 12 Q. And that cat cage was sitting right 13 next to the couch where your wife was supposedly sleeping 14 that night, correct? 15 A. Right in the corner, yes. 16 Q. Pretty close to where Damon and Devon 17 were both sleeping too, right? 18 A. Yes, within 10, 12 feet. 19 Q. And you would expect that if a 20 stranger came into that room and came over there by that 21 cage, that that cat is going to raise a ruckus, isn't he? 22 A. Personally, I wish that cat could 23 talk. That cat got to see a lot. 24 Q. Right. 25 A. We wouldn't be here right now. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4474 1 Q. Well, I think we would, but -- 2 A. That cat didn't make -- it would 3 probably hiss, but not make a sound like a dog would. 4 Q. Okay. A sound like a dog would. Your 5 Pomeranian would make a sound, wouldn't it? 6 A. Yeah, he would. He is a yapping 7 little thing. 8 Q. Now, when strangers came into your 9 house, I mean, that is one time when he would be yapping, 10 wouldn't he? 11 A. Well, that dog was so little he 12 couldn't go down the stairs, so he slept upstairs by the 13 fireplace right beside our bed in this great big huge 14 pillow, about this big, and real, real deep, he would 15 kind of buried himself down in that pillow and go to 16 sleep. 17 Q. So that evening the yapping little dog 18 and the hissing cat were both inside your house; is that 19 right? 20 A. Yes, sir. The dog was upstairs. 21 Q. The coffee table that was in the 22 middle of your room there? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. The coffee table that you said the 25 paramedic put back on the pedestal? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4475 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Was the paramedic the one who was nice 3 enough to put the flowers back on the table too, or did 4 somebody else do that? 5 A. I don't know. All I know is that it 6 was all slid down sideways. 7 Q. So you saw the paramedic put the table 8 back up, but you are not quite sure who put the flower 9 arrangement back in the center of the table? 10 A. I don't think the flower arrangement 11 really fell off the glass, I think it just slid down the 12 glass, and all he did was lift it up. He just lifted the 13 whole thing up at one time. 14 Q. So, when he lifted it back up, the 15 flower arrangement didn't slide down that glass table on 16 to the floor? 17 A. Well, it was all the way to the floor. 18 Q. Yeah. 19 A. And then when he picked it up, they 20 all kind of went up together. 21 Q. What kind of towel did Darlie have 22 around her neck when the police got there? 23 A. Seemed like a washrag or something 24 smaller than a dish towel. 25 Q. Are you even sure that she had a towel Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4476 1 up around her neck? 2 A. Yes, sir. Or the paramedics could 3 have put it on there before. 4 Q. Do you remember back in September, on 5 September the 12th I asked you about the towels? Do you 6 recall that? 7 A. Yes, sir, I do. 8 Q. Do you remember I asked you about the 9 towel around Darlie's neck? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Do you recall that I said, "Well, did 12 you see Darlie with any towel around her neck at any 13 time?" 14 Let me just show you on page 158, it 15 will be the last line on this -- let's turn this around. 16 Do you see that I'm asking: "Well, did you see Darlie 17 with any towel around her neck at any time?" 18 Do you see that question? 19 A. At anytime, yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. At anytime -- 21 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, what 23 was your answer? 24 25 A. My answer was no then. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4477 1 Q. Back on September the 12th, now -- 2 3 THE COURT: Well, I think we want to 4 get the answer that -- 5 MR. GREG DAVIS: I think that he 6 actually said, "At anytime." 7 THE WITNESS: At anytime. 8 9 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 10 Q. Back on September the 12th of 1996, 11 your answer was, no. And yet today, some, what, four to 12 five months later, your memory is such that you can tell 13 us that it was some sort of wash cloth; is that right? 14 A. Yes, sir. But the question you were 15 asking me about that before, you just asked me to 16 describe it, and I said it was a green and white towel. 17 Q. No, sir, I asked you -- no, sir, that 18 was the towel about -- that you placed on Damon. I was 19 asking about the green and white checkered. Do you 20 remember that? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. This question here, "Did you 23 see Darlie with any towel around her neck?" That was 24 concerning Darlie alone. 25 A. Yes, sir, in the house, I didn't see a Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4478 1 towel on Darlie's neck. 2 Q. Well, remember the question was at any 3 time? Right? 4 A. Yes, sir. I must have misunderstood. 5 Q. Okay. Let me ask you: The jewelry 6 that was laying up there on the kitchen counter? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. And you are familiar with that 9 jewelry, correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. I think that we've looked at a picture 12 of that previously, and I'm talking about the rings, the 13 bracelets that were on the kitchen bar between the family 14 room and the kitchen. Okay? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Most of that jewelry, would it 17 be fair to say, was bought at pawn shops? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Would it also be fair to say that you 20 and the defendant made several trips over to pawn shops 21 to purchase the jewelry? 22 A. Yes, sir, we had a friend that would 23 call us whenever something really of a good value, he 24 would call us and let us know what was there, and we 25 would go over and take a look at it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4479 1 Q. All right. Would there be occasions 2 when the defendant would go over to the pawn shop with 3 the children? 4 A. Occasionally. They liked going in 5 there. 6 Q. And, how would you describe the 7 defendant's demeanor or her behavior when she went to 8 that pawn shop? 9 A. Sometimes it was just like shopping 10 for something for our anniversary or a birthday or 11 Christmas. I wouldn't say her demeanor was in any 12 strange way. 13 Q. Nothing out of the ordinary? 14 A. Nothing. 15 Q. Acted inside the pawn shop pretty much 16 like she acted outside of the pawn shop, right? 17 A. Pretty much, yeah. 18 Q. Do you remember the names of the women 19 inside the pawn shop that dealt with y'all? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Do you remember on occasion that there 22 were women working in there, that would wait on you or 23 the defendant? 24 A. Most of the time we dealt with this 25 man named Dan. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4480 1 Q. I'm sorry? 2 A. We mainly dealt with a man named Dan, 3 who was one of the managers. 4 Q. Mr. Routier, yesterday Mr. Mulder 5 asked you some questions about Gangster's Paradise. Do 6 you recall those questions? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And did I understand you to say 9 yesterday, that you thought there was absolutely nothing 10 wrong with playing that song at a funeral? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Did I also understand you to say that 13 you didn't think there was anything wrong with your five 14 and six year old children adopting that song as their 15 favorite song? 16 A. No, sir. I never understood what the 17 words were, but they didn't know how to sing the words so 18 they just liked the way that the song was made, the way 19 it was put together. 20 Q. All right. And, when it came on, I 21 think you said they said, "Daddy, crank it up." Right? 22 A. Yes, sir, they loved that song. 23 Q. Okay. Have you ever looked at the 24 lyrics to that song? 25 A. No, sir, I haven't. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4481 1 Q. Do you know what that song is about? 2 A. Street crime. 3 Q. Violent street crime. That's right. 4 Do you know how it begins? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. "As I walk through the valley of the 7 shadow of death, I take a look at my life and realize 8 there is nothing left." 9 That is the first two lines of your 10 children's favorite song. Did you know that? 11 A. No, I didn't know that. 12 Q. Do you know, that in that song by 13 Coolio, he says, "You better watch how you're talking and 14 where you are walking, or you and your homies might be 15 lying in chalk." Do you know that? 16 A. I do remember that lyric, yes, sir. 17 Q. Yeah. Do you remember the next two 18 lines are: "I really hate to trip, but I gotta lope, as 19 they croaked, I see myself in the pistol smoke fool." Do 20 you know that? 21 A. I didn't know that. Kids sometimes 22 adopt songs that we as adults don't always understand. 23 Q. You know that it goes on in this 24 favorite song to say, "I'm an educated fool with money on 25 my mind. I got my tin in my hand and a gleam in my eye. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4482 1 I'm a loped out gangsta, set tripping banker, and my 2 homies is down, so don't arouse my anger, fool." 3 Did you know that was part of that 4 song, too? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Did you know that he continues: "They 7 ain't nothing but a heartbeat away. I'm living my life, 8 do or die, what can I say. I'm 23 now, but will I live 9 to see 24? The way things is going, I don't know." 10 Did you know that? 11 A. I know what he is saying. 12 Q. Yeah. Because of street violence and 13 violent crime, he may not live another year, right? 14 A. Yes, sir, I think we're all that way. 15 Q. Then he goes on and he says: "Tell 16 me, why are we so blind to see that the ones we hurt are 17 you and me." Do you recognize that? 18 A. Yes, sir. Street crime people killing 19 each other. 20 Q. People that they love sometimes? 21 A. Not necessarily. 22 Q. You know in the last verse, do you 23 know that he goes on to say, "Power and the money. Money 24 and the power. Minute after minute, hour after hour. 25 Everybody is running, but half of them ain't looking at Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4483 1 what's going on in the kitchen. But I don't know what is 2 cooking. They say I got to learn, but nobody is here to 3 teach me. If they can't understand it, how can they 4 reach me. I guess they can't, I guess they won't, I 5 guess they front. That is why I know my life is out of 6 luck, fool." 7 A. Mr. Davis, I didn't write that song. 8 Q. No, I know. Coolio did. 9 A. Coolio did. 10 Q. This is the song that you and your 11 children listened to. 12 A. They listened not to the words but to 13 the music. 14 Q. And these are the lyrics that were 15 played at your children's funeral too, weren't they? 16 A. Yes, sir, they were. If they had 17 loved Barney, we would have played Barney. 18 Q. One last subject I want to discuss 19 with you here. That is the fact that you and your wife 20 both have a financial interest in this case, don't you? 21 A. What do you mean? 22 Q. Book deals? 23 A. We haven't made any deals at all. 24 Q. Do you remember back on December 3rd 25 of '96 that you discussed those book deals with Corrine Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4484 1 Wells? 2 A. I said that is how we're going to pay 3 for these attorneys, but we're just hopeful thinking. 4 Q. Well, you didn't mention attorneys 5 back then. Didn't you say that you had been approached 6 by 17 to 19 book companies? 7 A. No, sir, that is not true. 8 Q. And do you remember that when you said 9 that to Corrine Wells that you said that you weren't 10 going to settle for the small dollars like 30 or 40 11 thousand dollars? Do you remember that? 12 A. No, sir, I did not say that. 13 Q. Do you remember telling Corrine Wells 14 that, in fact, the defendant was going to write the book 15 herself? 16 A. I don't remember saying that either. 17 Q. And do you remember the reason why she 18 was going to write the book herself, because she was 19 going to cut out the middle man, and that you and she 20 were going to go for the big figures? 21 A. No, sir, I did not say that. 22 Q. That is what you told her back in 23 December, wasn't it? 24 A. No, sir, I did not. There's six 25 people in here writing books right now. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4485 1 Q. I'm just talking about the one -- 2 about the one the defendant is going to write? 3 A. I don't know if that is true. 4 Q. You don't know whether she is going to 5 write a book or not? 6 A. I don't know if she is or not. 7 Q. Going to go for the big figures, 8 correct? 9 A. No, sir. 10 11 MR. GREG DAVIS: Pass the witness. 12 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I 13 think now we will take our morning break. Let's be back 14 at 25 after, please. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 17 (Whereupon, a short 18 Recess was taken, 19 After which time, 20 The proceedings were 21 Resumed on the record, 22 In the presence and 23 Hearing of the defendant 24 And the jury, as follows:) 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4486 1 THE COURT: All right. Let the record 2 reflect that all parties in the trial are present in 3 these proceedings. Mr. Mosty? 4 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor -- 5 THE COURT: These proceedings are 6 being held -- excuse me -- all parties at trial are 7 present, and these proceedings are being held outside the 8 presence of the jury. 9 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I just had one 10 more thought about why that illegal bug is relevant. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And it relates 13 to, for instance, all of the reports, but I can't 14 remember, this is Mr. Patterson's entire file, this red 15 folder. And I think it was marked for record purposes. 16 THE COURT: It was. 17 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I don't see a 18 sticker, but it -- well, yes, it was marked for record 19 purposes, as Defendant's Exhibit 72. And what is 20 notoriously missing from this report, and all of the 21 reports, is any report of this illegal bug. 22 For instance, you will recall they 23 brought in the Garland K-9 unit, I think it was Garland, 24 it was some other city anyway. 25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: It was. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4487 1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: It was Garland. 2 And, there is a Garland K-9 report. And in all of these 3 records, there is not one reference in Garland, or 4 Rowlett, or anywhere else, to this illegal bug. 5 And so, that raises the question of, 6 what else did they leave out, as we have gone through all 7 this stuff about never taking any notes. 8 Another reason that all of this is 9 relevant is, that it goes to what they chose to write 10 down and what they chose not to write down and what they 11 chose to leave out. And this goes directly to that as a 12 relevance to impeach these officers, and how they went 13 about this investigation. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. That is now in 15 the record. Let's bring the jury in, please. 16 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Do I surmise 17 that that would be overruled? 18 THE COURT: Yes, that is overruled. 19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, we don't 20 find it curious that they have -- 21 THE COURT: Gentlemen, we have 22 concluded that hearing. That hearing is over. 23 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, we just 24 thought of some new things we thought you might want to 25 entertain. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4488 1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We've still got 2 to keep pointing those things out, and we might think of 3 others. 4 THE COURT: I'm sure you will. 5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Can we not 6 confer? 7 THE COURT: You may confer with each 8 other, yes. 9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Thank you, Judge. 10 Thank you, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Now, in the meantime, we 12 will bring the jury back in. 13 14 (Whereupon, the jury 15 was returned to the 16 courtroom, and the 17 proceedings were 18 resumed on the record, 19 in open court, in the 20 presence and hearing 21 of the defendant, 22 as follows:) 23 24 THE COURT: Let the record reflect 25 that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4489 1 seated. 2 Mr. Mulder? Anybody have anything 3 else? Thank you. 4 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 5 6 7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 8 9 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 10 Q. Just a thing or two, Darin. You've 11 never doubted your wife's innocence, have you? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. You were asked about the towels. And 14 about how many towels were in that room in the den and in 15 the hall and in the area where the action was? 16 A. Probably five or six. 17 Q. Do you know how many? 18 A. Not exactly, no. 19 Q. Did you get any towels? 20 A. No, sir, I didn't. 21 Q. Did Waddell or Walling or any of the 22 police officers get any towels? 23 A. No, sir, they didn't. 24 Q. Did the paramedics get any towels to 25 your knowledge? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4490 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. The towels that were there, came out 3 of your towel drawer, didn't they? 4 A. Yes, sir, they did. 5 Q. All right. Who was left to get the 6 towels? 7 A. Darlie. 8 Q. Was she just getting the towels in the 9 sink and throwing them at you, or was she bringing them 10 to you? 11 A. She was bringing them to me. 12 Q. That makes sense, doesn't it? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Is there any other way that that would 15 be done? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Was she there, and did she wipe 18 Devon's chest as you blew into his mouth? 19 A. Yes, sir, she was there. 20 Q. Got the blood off of him? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did you think that was something that 23 a mother would do to comfort her son under those 24 circumstances? Does that seem unreasonable to you that 25 she would do that? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4491 1 A. No, it's not unreasonable at all. 2 Q. Now, when these statements were given 3 by you and by Darlie, did you, at the time request the 4 officers to video record, or tape record your part? 5 A. Yes, sir. I told him that I could not 6 write down as fast as I can think, and that he was 7 going -- he said he would just put -- he would just go in 8 with some notes and some other things that he wanted to 9 fill in. 10 Q. All right. So they didn't question 11 you while you were giving your statement as to what they 12 thought might be important? You were just to write down 13 what you thought was important; is that right? 14 15 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm sorry. I'm going 16 to object to that as being leading. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him 18 answer it if he knows the answer. Go ahead. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir. They just 20 asked me -- they just basically told me to write what I 21 could remember, and I did in a very quick manner. 22 23 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 24 Q. Has your memory improved since the 25 event? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4492 1 A. Yes, sir, very much so. 2 Q. Over the recess, I was reading through 3 your statement. Did you put in your statement, 4 initially, is there something in there that after the 5 police got there, you went upstairs and put your pants 6 on? 7 A. No, sir, I had my pants on. 8 Q. But didn't you put in your 9 statement -- 10 A. I put in my statement that I couldn't 11 remember putting my pants on before I went downstairs. I 12 knew I had my glasses on, because I can't see two feet in 13 front of me. 14 Q. Well, I mean, when you gave the 15 statement, you put in there that it wasn't until the 16 police got there, that you went upstairs and put your 17 pants on? 18 A. I knew that couldn't be true. 19 Q. But that is in your statement, isn't 20 it? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. That means you were down there nude? 23 A. No, sir, I wasn't down there nude. I 24 think I would have been embarrassed if the police 25 officers would have started coming in, and I would have Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4493 1 been standing there stark naked. 2 Q. Has your memory gotten progressively 3 better with time? 4 A. Yes, sir, it has. 5 Q. Did you remember more of what happened 6 on the 8th than you did the 6th, and more on the 10th 7 than you did the 8th, and more on the 20th than you did 8 on the 10th? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And more as we go down the line? 11 A. A lot more now. 12 Q. Okay. Do you find that unusual? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Given the circumstances? 15 A. No, sir. I have had a lot of time to 16 think about all this. 17 Q. In your effort to reconstruct things 18 with Darlie, did y'all go to a psychic? 19 A. Yes, sir, we did. 20 Q. Did a psychic tell you and her what 21 the psychic thought happened? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. We were looking for answers that the 25 police couldn't tell us. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4494 1 Q. Just looking for help anywhere you 2 could get it? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And did the psychic have a theory 5 about what this man did? 6 7 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm going to object 8 to that as being hearsay from a psychic. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I'm not going to 11 go into what -- 12 13 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 14 Q. Did the psychic have a version, a sort 15 of a phrenology, where you feel the bumps on your head, 16 reconstruction of the scene? 17 18 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm going to object 19 to that, again, whether she has got an opinion or not. 20 It's still hearsay. 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, if the FBI 22 agent can testify, then we can hear what the psychic has 23 to say. 24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, if the psychic 25 wants to come in here and testify, let her. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4495 1 THE COURT: Gentlemen, the objection 2 is sustained. Rephrase your question. 3 4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 5 Q. Did y'all talk to a psychic? 6 A. Yes, sir, we did. 7 Q. Did Darlie relate to you that she had 8 had dreams and nightmares concerning this attack? 9 A. Yes, sir, we've both had a lot of 10 nightmares. 11 Q. And are the dreams and nightmares 12 different versions of what her version was to you about 13 Damon coming in and tapping her on the shoulder? 14 A. Are they different? 15 Q. Well, yes. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. Mr. Davis has had a number of 18 questions about your finances and your business. Will 19 you tell the jury what your expenses were? I think we 20 know your rent was $525 dollars per month. 21 A. Yes, sir. I had just paid all my 22 equipment off. We had taken a loan out for about 23 seventy-five thousand dollars on equipment, and it was 24 all paid by January. 25 So, all of a sudden we had almost Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4496 1 three thousand dollars a month extra per month, that we 2 weren't used to having, because we had made -- it's like 3 paying off a house in three years. 4 Q. I understand that, but I want to get 5 to the point here. 6 A. Individually, what my bills were? 7 Q. Tell us what your fixed expenses were 8 each month. 9 A. About five thousand dollars a month. 10 Q. All right. That includes what? 11 A. Electricity, phone bills, I have three 12 phones, rent, labor is usually the highest, you know, the 13 highest amount that you have to pay. 14 Q. Did that include Basia? 15 A. Yes, sir, it did. 16 Q. During your personal knowledge of her, 17 has she had mental difficulties? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 20 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'll object to that, 21 your Honor. That is an area that we have already 22 discussed. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's move on. 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4497 1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 2 Q. Are you personally aware -- 3 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Again, I'm going to 5 object to that, if it deals with the same area. I assume 6 it will. 7 THE COURT: Well, let him ask the 8 question first. 9 MR. GREG DAVIS: May we approach the 10 bench for a moment? 11 THE COURT: Yeah, I can see both sides 12 up here. 13 14 (Whereupon, a short 15 discussion was held 16 at the side of the 17 bench, between the Court, 18 and the attorneys for 19 both sides in the case, 20 off the record, and outside 21 of the hearing of the 22 Jury, after which time, 23 the proceedings were 24 resumed on the record, 25 outside the hearing of Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4498 1 the jury as follows:) 2 3 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder, I have already 4 ruled on that. You are instructed not to ask any 5 questions in that area. I have already ruled on that. 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Can I get it on 7 the record? 8 THE COURT: I will put it in the 9 record once we get through. All right. 10 Let's move on to the next question, 11 please. 12 13 (Whereupon, the following 14 mentioned item was 15 marked for 16 identification only 17 as Defendant's Exhibit 81, 18 after which time the 19 proceedings were 20 resumed on the record 21 in open court, as 22 follows:) 23 24 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 25 Q. Let me hand you what has been marked Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4499 1 for identification and record purposes as Defendant's 2 Exhibit No. 81. I will ask you if you recognize that and 3 can identify it? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And, is that true and accurate? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Bank statement? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Concerning your business? 10 A. Balance, yes, sir. 11 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We'll offer into 13 evidence what's been marked and identified as Defendant's 14 Exhibit No. 81. 15 MR. GREG DAVIS: No objection. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Defendant's Exhibit 17 81 is admitted. 18 19 (Whereupon, the above 20 mentioned item was 21 received in evidence as 22 Defendant's Exhibit No. 81, 23 for all purposes 24 after which time, 25 the proceedings were Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4500 1 resumed on the record, 2 as follows:) 3 4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 5 Q. This shows your bank statement through 6 June of 1996 through June 30th; is that right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And it shows a bank balance, of June 9 30th, of how much? 10 A. Seven thousand, nine hundred forty-one 11 dollars and ten cents. 12 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you have already 13 testified that you had some 18 or 20 thousand in accounts 14 receivable at that time? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. That were good accounts receivable? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And that have since been collected? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. You were asked about an American 21 Express bill? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Remember I wanted you to explain that, 24 and he went on to something else? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4501 1 Q. Did you pay that bill? 2 A. Yes, sir, I did. 3 Q. Was your house payment current? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. In June? 6 A. Yes, sir, it was. I made the bank 7 payment -- the June payment wasn't late until the 15th. 8 I just hadn't written out the bills yet. 9 Q. Maybe we're beating this thing to 10 death, but with that Gangster Paradise, and I frankly 11 hadn't heard it until the other day, and I cannot recite 12 any of the lyrics. 13 14 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm going to object 15 to that as really side-bar. 16 THE COURT: Well, I think I will 17 let -- 18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Let's do a question, 19 not leading. 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, if it gets 21 much more complicated than George Strait or Willie 22 Nelson, I don't listen to the words. 23 THE COURT: Oh, I understand, Mr. 24 Mulder, I understand. Well, let's ask the question. 25 Yes. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4502 1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 2 Q. Do you listen to the words of those 3 things? 4 A. No, sir, I don't. 5 Q. Do you think your children understand 6 what the words are, or if they hear the words, understand 7 the meaning? 8 A. No, sir, I think they just understand 9 the beat. 10 Q. They like the beat and the rhythm and 11 that sort of thing, right? 12 A. Right. They jump around all over the 13 floor and dance. 14 Q. When you and Darlie -- they gave you 15 your warnings when you -- on that affidavit sheet, it's 16 got your warnings there, "That you have a right to remain 17 silent. That you have a right to a lawyer. If you can't 18 afford a lawyer, a lawyer will be appointed for you to 19 counsel with you, prior to or during any questioning by 20 the police; and you have a right to terminate the 21 interview at any time." That is basically your Miranda 22 warnings. You are familiar with those now? 23 A. Yes, sir, I am. 24 Q. You had never had those warnings given 25 to you before, had you? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4503 1 A. No, sir, 2 Q. In fact, other than an estate planning 3 lawyer, you have never even talked to a lawyer? 4 A. Yes, sir, and we never even talked to 5 him. 6 Q. Now, when Mr. Patterson and Mr. Frosch 7 asked you to give statements, did you hide behind your 8 Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and not say 9 anything at all, or did you tell them -- 10 A. I told them everything. I didn't have 11 anything to hide. 12 Q. You answered all of their questions? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. You gave them keys to your house, and 15 your boat, and storage and the company, didn't you? 16 A. Yes, sir, I gave them keys to 17 everything I had. 18 Q. There has been some talk about 19 insurance. Did you have several hundred thousand dollars 20 worth of insurance on your life? 21 A. I have eight hundred thousand dollars 22 worth of life insurance on me. 23 Q. All right. How much did you have on 24 Darlie? 25 A. I think -- I believe two hundred Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4504 1 thousand. 2 Q. All right. And the children, it was 3 just a family policy, where there was 5,000 on each of 4 the children? 5 A. Yes, sir, and they just add them on as 6 you have them. 7 Q. You were asked about a sock and you 8 said you had never seen that sock. 9 Is this one of y'all's towels? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Do you recognize these as towels? 12 A. Yes, sir, kitchen towels. 13 Q. Let me just ask you -- 14 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Of course, it 16 would be on the very bottom. 17 THE COURT: Always the way. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Why is it always 19 the last place you look? 20 THE COURT: Just fate. 21 22 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 23 Q. What did you do with old socks? 24 A. We just -- we had a rag pile. 25 Q. Okay. This sock was described as Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4505 1 having some holes in it, other than the obvious holes 2 that you see. 3 A. That is a pretty holey (sic) sock. 4 Q. Well, some places there are marks on 5 it, and other places, there are holes and no marks, 6 indicating that it was worn? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. I suspect. Did you wear socks with 9 multiple holes in them? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Is this the type of sock that you 12 wore? 13 A. Tube sock, yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to 15 believe that this is not one of your old socks? 16 A. Just by -- what if you flipped it 17 around, see where the heel is, just by guessing at it, I 18 would say that it was my sock. 19 Q. That it is your sock? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Where would you put a sock that 22 had holes in it and was -- 23 A. We had a basket on top of the washer 24 and dryer and we would just use them for rags, just for 25 waxing the cars, you know. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4506 1 Q. Cleaning up around the house? 2 A. Cleaning up around the house. 3 Q. Plenty to do with three boys, I guess? 4 A. Oh, yeah. 5 Q. I mean, the more you clean, the more 6 there is to clean? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. It's like shoveling sand against the 9 tide, isn't it? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 12 MR. GREG DAVIS: Again, if we could 13 stop with the leading, please. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's stop the 15 side-bar and the leading. Let's phrase our questions, 16 both sides please. You are both experienced attorneys. 17 Let's everyone phrase the questions properly. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, excuse me. 19 I'm just trying to move along on some of the things that 20 are obvious. 21 THE COURT: And we appreciate that, 22 Mr. Mulder. 23 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4507 1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 2 Q. Let me ask you this, and I made a note 3 of it. Did Darlie, when you went to see her in the 4 hospital, did she at any time complain about or remark 5 about an injury to her mouth? 6 A. Yes, sir, she did. 7 Q. What was that? 8 A. When I first got in there, the -- some 9 other family members were giving her ice chips, and 10 feeding her ice chips because her lips were just all 11 swollen, like this, you could see the cuts on the inside 12 of her mouth. 13 14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. I believe 15 that's all. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Davis? 17 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 18 19 20 RECROSS EXAMINATION 21 22 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 23 Q. Mr. Routier, it's really more accurate 24 to say that your memory got better every time we got a 25 test result back in this case, didn't it? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4508 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Every time we found out something 3 else, you remembered something else that would correspond 4 with that finding, didn't you? 5 A. No, sir. What I remember is exactly 6 what is the truth. 7 Q. So that when Mr. Mulder said, that 8 your memory was better on September the 12th than it had 9 been on June 8th, and now it's better than it was in 10 September. Of course, we have had all of these test 11 results come back, and you are privy to all them now, 12 aren't you? 13 A. Not necessarily. 14 Q. You pretty much know everything that 15 has happened in this case, haven't you? 16 A. Yes, sir, but the truth doesn't have 17 anything to do with the test results. 18 Q. Let me show you again, State's Exhibit 19 83-B. This is the letter I showed you yesterday. Do you 20 remember me showing you this letter, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And let me ask you: Is your memory 23 better about that today? Do you remember that is one of 24 the letters addressed to you now? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4509 1 Q. Okay. 2 3 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, at this 4 time we will offer State's Exhibit 83-B. 5 THE COURT: Any objection? 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I thought that 7 came in yesterday. 8 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, sir, just 83-A. 9 He said he didn't remember that one yesterday. 10 THE COURT: Any objection? 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, just a 12 moment. No, we don't have any objection. 13 THE COURT: State's Exhibit 83-B is 14 admitted. 15 16 (Whereupon, the above 17 mentioned item was 18 received in evidence 19 as State's Exhibit No. 83-B, 20 for all purposes 21 after which time, 22 the proceedings were 23 resumed on the record, 24 as follows:) 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4510 1 MR. GREG DAVIS: Judge, may I publish 2 this briefly. 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Ladies and 5 gentlemen, this is a letter from Mellon Mortgage Company, 6 May the 8th, 1996, addressed to Darin E. Routier and 7 Darlie L. Routier, in reference to a loan number. 8 "Dear mortgagor, your situation is serious. 9 Your mortgage payments for April and May of 1996 have not 10 been received and you are in default of your loan. 11 "Mellon Mortgage would like to help you. 12 Including late charges, the total amount past due is 13 $2,525.74. If payments are not received by May 23, 1996, 14 you risk foreclosure. You could lose your home. 15 "Additionally, a deficiency judgment could 16 be sought against you for any losses that might result." 17 It goes on then with instructions as to the 18 payment of these charges. 19 20 BY MR. GREG DAVIS: 21 Q. Sir, the situation by June the 3rd, 22 had gotten to the point where you got rejected on a five 23 thousand dollar loan at Bank One. You remember that, 24 don't you? 25 A. Yes, sir, that was an unsecured loan. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4511 1 Q. Okay. You remember dealing with an 2 Okie Williams, correct? 3 A. Yes, sir, I do. 4 Q. And, the bottom line on that 5 transaction, sir, was that they would not loan you five 6 thousand dollars unsecured, would they? 7 A. Not unsecured, no, but they would 8 secured. 9 Q. You didn't get that five thousand 10 dollars from Bank One, did you? 11 A. I wasn't too heartbroken about it 12 either. 13 Q. Could you please answer my question? 14 Did you get the five thousand dollars? 15 A. Did we get the loan? No. 16 Q. Okay. That document, Defendant's 17 Exhibit 81, that summary, from Bank One that deals with 18 the month of June, it shows deposits of eleven thousand, 19 seven hundred and fifty-six dollars; is that correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. And again it shows -- 22 A. And only seven thousand came out. 23 Q. Right. Checks paid of seven thousand, 24 one hundred and fifty-four dollars and nine cents, 25 correct? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4512 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. So if we're correct for the first five 3 months of '96 that you have receipts for seventy-four 4 thousand dollars, if we add these deposits of eighty-five 5 thousand dollars, we now have the receipts for six months 6 of 1996, don't we? 7 A. Five months. 8 Q. No, sir. I mean, I am including 9 through June. 10 A. One through six, yes, sir. 11 Q. Right. We have eighty-five thousand 12 dollars received and deposited in Bank One by Testnec, 13 don't we? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Two times eighty-five thousand is how 16 much money, sir? 17 A. Two times eighty-five thousand? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. A hundred and seventy-some thousand. 20 Q. Okay. That is ninety thousand dollars 21 less than your company earned in 1995; is that correct? 22 A. That is not adding the twenty thousand 23 that I still had on the books open. 24 Q. No. I'm just talking about monies 25 that you had received and put in there? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4513 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And these represent accounts 3 receivable for earlier months, don't they? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. A hundred and seventy-something 6 dollars as opposed to two hundred and sixty thousand, 7 would you agree with me that is a difference of ninety 8 thousand dollars? 9 A. Yes, sir, it would have been. 10 Q. And when you came into Court on July 11 the 1st, on that bond hearing, it's fair to say you were 12 trying to portray yourself as poor as you could that day, 13 weren't you? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. That's true? 16 A. I am broke. 17 Q. Because on July the 1st, when you were 18 asked about how much money was in this bank account, this 19 account that shows seven thousand, nine hundred and 20 forty-one dollars on June 30th, do you remember what you 21 told this Court, how much money you had in that bank 22 account then on July the 1st? 23 A. I was guessing, about twenty-five 24 hundred. 25 Q. Well, actually you guessed a little Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4514 1 bit lower than that. 2 A. Two thousand? 3 Q. Yeah. I asked, "How much money do you 4 have in that account?" 5 "About two thousand dollars." 6 You were about six thousand dollars 7 short on July 1st, weren't you? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Well, seven thousand, nine hundred and 10 forty-one dollars minus two thousand dollars is what? 11 Five thousand, nine hundred and forty-one dollars? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Of course, that was on July 1st. Now 14 the situation is that you are trying to paint this one as 15 rosy as you can about your finances, aren't you? 16 A. There was nothing wrong with my 17 finances. July the 1st, I just hadn't had the money come 18 in yet. 19 Q. On June the 8th, you said that you 20 asked or said that you wanted these police officers to 21 videotape, or audio tape what you were saying, because 22 you really didn't trust them to get down everything that 23 you were writing, or that you were saying to them; right? 24 A. I just can't write everything that I 25 think. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4515 1 Q. You have had a lot of discussions with 2 these attorneys. They haven't even -- have they written 3 down notes of what you told them? 4 A. Very little. I don't know. 5 Q. Well, I would imagine given that fact, 6 that you have obviously then asked them to audio or 7 videotape you, haven't you? Make sure that they get it 8 down right? 9 A. No, sir, I haven't. 10 Q. Would it be fair to say, that really 11 back on June the 6th, by your version, we have got a real 12 lucky intruder, don't we? 13 A. There was an intruder. 14 Q. A lucky intruder? 15 A. Why lucky? 16 Q. I mean, after all, he picked a house 17 where the window just happened to be open to the garage, 18 right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Just happened to pick a house where on 21 that night, the alarm system is not turned on or armed, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Lucky that in fact once he gets past 25 the alarm system off, he gets through the window, open, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4516 1 when he gets to the utility room, he just happens to find 2 a sock available to him for his use that night, right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And lucky enough that when he does 5 that, he gets into the kitchen and lo and behold there in 6 the butcher block he finds a weapon to attack your two 7 children and your wife, right? 8 A. My understanding is that it is called 9 an opportunist. 10 Q. No, my question is, he was lucky 11 enough that evening, that once he got past all that, the 12 murder weapon is actually provided inside the house; 13 right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Lucky enough that while he is 16 attacking both your children, your wife doesn't wake up, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Lucky enough that after he attacks 20 her, that in fact, she doesn't even get a good look at 21 his face, right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Lucky enough, that as he is leaving 24 the house, he drops the knife on the floor there, and 25 your wife doesn't pick it up and doesn't use it against Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4517 1 him, right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Lucky enough that when he gets into 4 the garage that he doesn't deposit any blood on the 5 floor, no blood on the window, correct? 6 A. I don't know anything about that. 7 Q. And then lucky enough that when he 8 leaves out that garage into your back yard, that he 9 either scales that fence without leaving a mark, or he 10 opens up that gate and he then latches and closes it 11 without anybody detecting that either, right? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. A real lucky guy, wasn't he? 14 A. Yeah, and I want him dead. 15 Q. So do I. 16 17 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions. 18 19 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 22 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 23 Q. I guess he is lucky that the police 24 don't pursue the leads that they received? 25 A. Exactly. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4518 1 Q. Lucky that when people called in 2 having seen a man with a black ball cap and a black 3 T-shirt and jeans, in the vicinity, that the police 4 didn't pursue it? 5 A. They never looked. 6 Q. Lucky enough that when Angel Rickels 7 got a hold of them and they came out to her house, they 8 weren't interested? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Lucky enough that the police are not 11 interested in pursuing the fingerprint that the man left 12 as he went out that window? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. You aren't responsible for the luck or 15 the happenstance of some crazy assailant, are you? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Anything more precious to you than 18 those two youngsters? 19 A. Nothing. There is nothing more 20 important than those boys to us. 21 Q. Have you ever doubted your wife's 22 innocence? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Do you doubt it now? 25 A. No, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4519 1 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's 3 all we have. 4 MR. GREG DAVIS: I don't have any 5 further questions. 6 I would offer State's Exhibit 141, the 7 voluntary statement given on June the 8th. 8 THE COURT: Any objection? 9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Is that his 10 statement? 11 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: No objection. 13 We'll call -- 14 THE COURT: Just a minute. State's 15 Exhibit 141 is admitted. 16 17 (Whereupon, the item 18 Heretofore mentioned 19 Was received in evidence 20 As State's Exhibit No. 141 21 For all purposes, 22 After which time, the 23 Proceedings were resumed 24 As follows:) 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4520 1 THE COURT: You're under the Rule. Do 2 you understand that, sir? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: Do not discuss your 5 testimony with anybody who had testified. In other 6 words, do not compare it. 7 You may talk to the attorneys for 8 either side. If someone tries to talk to you about your 9 testimony, tell the attorney for the side who called you. 10 Of course, you have to remain outside 11 the courtroom when you are not testifying. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 14 Step down, please. Watch your step. 15 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, could we 16 have a 705 hearing, pursuant to the expert testimony, 17 please? 18 THE COURT: Well, you certainly can. 19 The jury will step back into the jury 20 room, please. 21 22 (Whereupon, the jury 23 Was excused from the 24 Courtroom, and the 25 Proceedings were held Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4521 1 In the presence of the 2 Defendant, with his 3 Attorney, but outside 4 The presence of jury 5 As follows:) 6 7 THE COURT: Will you raise your right 8 hand, please, sir? 9 10 (Whereupon, the witness 11 Was duly sworn by the 12 Court, to speak the truth, 13 The whole truth and 14 Nothing but the truth, 15 After which, the 16 Proceedings were 17 Resumed as follows:) 18 19 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or 20 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be 21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 22 help you God? 23 THE WITNESS: I do. 24 THE COURT: All right. Have a seat 25 right there. You have, of course, testified many times. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4522 1 You understand the Rule of Evidence. You are under it 2 now. You don't need to have it explained to you now. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. Let the record 5 reflect that these proceedings are being held outside the 6 presence of the jury, and all parties at the trial are 7 present. 8 This is a 705 hearing on Dr. DiMaio's 9 testimony, and the conclusions and underlying data that 10 go to those conclusions. 11 So, if we could get right to the 12 point, please. 13 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Yes, sir. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4523 1 Whereupon, 2 3 DR. VINCENT J.M. DIMAIO, 4 5 was called as a witness, for the purpose of a hearing, 6 outside the presence of the jury, having been first duly 7 sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the whole truth, 8 and nothing but the truth, testified in open court, as 9 follows: 10 11 EXAMINATION 12 13 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 14 Q. Dr. DiMaio, my name is Toby Shook. I 15 just have a few questions for you for this hearing. 16 What opinions have you come to testify 17 for today? 18 A. One, that the injuries incurred by 19 Mrs. Routier are those that would be incurred if one was 20 assaulted with a knife, and are not consistent with 21 self-inflicted wounds. She has shown significant blood 22 loss, and that her hemoglobin dropped two grams. She has 23 evidence of severe blunt trauma to both forearms, more on 24 the right than the left. Let's see. 25 Q. Is that it? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4524 1 A. Well, you know, I don't know exactly 2 what questions I'm going to be asked, you know, but -- 3 Q. Are those the only opinions -- has one 4 of these attorneys gone over your testimony with you and 5 asked you questions about what you are coming to testify 6 to? 7 A. Yes, essentially those questions, I 8 think there were some questions asked about bleeding, you 9 know, how much do you bleed with different wounds, and 10 that sort of thing, only having to do with, again with 11 Mrs. Routier. 12 Q. Okay. The first opinion you said was, 13 that Mrs. Routier's wounds would have been, did you say 14 consistent with an assailant? 15 A. What I'm saying is that, based on the 16 location and direction of the wounds and the nature of 17 the wounds, these are the type of wounds that one would 18 get if one was assaulted, rather than self-inflicted. 19 They are not consistent with self-inflicted wounds. 20 Q. And what facts or data do you rely on 21 for that opinion? 22 A. Essentially, the photographs of the 23 wounds and the medical records. All of my opinions are 24 based on photographs of her and her wounds, the -- and 25 the medical records. So that is about it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4525 1 Q. Okay. And then, the other was an 2 opinion on blunt trauma to the right arm, primarily, and 3 then maybe blood loss? 4 A. You get various evidence of blood 5 loss, her hemoglobin went down from 11.6 at about 3:30 in 6 the morning, down to 9.6 the following day. 7 Q. Okay. Is that, as far as you know, 8 the extent of the opinion that you have come to testify 9 for today? 10 A. Yes, I think I have covered 11 everything. Let me think a second. 12 Q. And which attorney did you discuss it 13 with? Was it Mr. Mulder? 14 A. Well, my original conversation was 15 with Mr. Parks when he was originally -- he was the one 16 who originally retained me, and then I discussed it with 17 Mr. Mulder as well. 18 Q. Okay. 19 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Is that as far as 22 it goes? 23 THE COURT: Any objection? 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I think so -- 25 that is pretty close, yeah. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4526 1 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: That's all then, 2 Judge. 3 THE COURT: All right. Any objection? 4 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We have none. 5 THE COURT: I didn't think so. What 6 about you, Mr. Shook? 7 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: No, sir. 8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, 9 Doctor. 10 Bring the jury in, please. 11 12 (Whereupon, the jury 13 Was returned to the 14 Courtroom, and the 15 Proceedings were 16 Resumed on the record, 17 In open court, in the 18 Presence and hearing 19 Of the defendant, 20 As follows:) 21 22 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and 23 gentlemen, let the record reflect that all parties from 24 the trial are present and the jury is seated. Ladies and 25 gentlemen of the jury, this witness has been sworn Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4527 1 outside of your presence. 2 Mr. Mulder. 3 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 4 THE COURT: 5 6 7 8 9 Whereupon, 10 11 DR. VINCENT J. M. DIMAIO, 12 13 was called as a witness, for the Defense, having been 14 first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the 15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in open 16 court, as follows: 17 18 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 21 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 22 Q. You are Dr. Vincent DiMaio? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And will you tell the jury your 25 profession? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4528 1 A. I am a physician, presently employed 2 as the chief medical examiner for Bexar County. 3 Q. You are a medical doctor? 4 A. Yes, sir. I graduated from medical 5 school in 1965 from the State University of New York, 6 Downstate Medical Center. 7 Q. Dr. DiMaio, do you have a specialty in 8 the field of medicine? 9 A. Yes, sir. I am a specialist in the 10 overall branch of medicine called pathology which is the 11 study and diagnosis of diseases. Then I have a 12 subspecialty in forensic pathology, which is essentially 13 a branch of medicine concerned with the application of 14 all aspects of medical science, the problems and the law. 15 Q. Doctor, are you board certified? 16 A. Yes, I am board certified in 17 anatomical pathology, clinical pathology and forensic 18 pathology. 19 Q. Does a pathologist also perform 20 autopsies? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And will you give the jury some idea 23 of how many autopsies you have performed? 24 A. I would say that I've performed 25 somewhere over 7,000 autopsies, and supervised maybe Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4529 1 about 21,000, in addition. 2 Q. For how many years have you been the 3 chief medical examiner for the county of Bexar? 4 A. Since March the 1st, 1981, so it will 5 be 16 years come the end of February. 6 Q. And Dr. DiMaio, will you please 7 outline for the jury your education and professional 8 experience for the position that you now hold? 9 A. Yes, sir. After graduating from 10 medical school and obtaining my M.D. Degree, I spent four 11 years additional training in the fields of anatomical 12 pathology, and clinical pathology at Duke Hospital in 13 Durham, North Carolina, and the King's County Downstate 14 Medical Center, in New York City. 15 I then spent the fifth year of 16 training in the field of forensic pathology at the Office 17 of the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Maryland. 18 Following this, I took my board exams 19 in '70 and '71 and was certified as a specialist in the 20 three fields of anatomical pathology, clinical pathology, 21 and forensic pathology. 22 I then went into the military, I 23 served two years in the Army, assigned to the Armed 24 Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, D.C. where I 25 was chief of the medical legal section for one year, and Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4530 1 chief of the wound ballistics for another year. Then I 2 got out of the service, and I moved to Texas. I took the 3 position as a medical examiner in Dallas. I was there 4 from around June the 1st, '72 to, as I said, March the 5 1st of 1981. I was the medical examiner there and 6 eventually ended up as the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner 7 for Dallas County. 8 That is about it. 9 Q. All right. Now, Doctor, there is a 10 magazine or journal in the field of forensics, forensic 11 medicine. Are you familiar with the American Journal of 12 Forensic Medicine and Pathology? 13 A. Yes. The American Journal of Forensic 14 Medicine and Pathology is the only medical journal 15 devoted to the field of forensic pathology published in 16 the United States. 17 Q. Would you tell us who the editor in 18 chief is? 19 A. I am the editor in chief. 20 Q. Okay. How long have you been editor 21 in chief? 22 A. I think this is the 6th year. 23 Q. You have published books in the past, 24 have you not? 25 A. I have published three books. I was Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4531 1 the editor of one book on forensic pathology. I wrote a 2 book on gunshot wounds, which has been published. And I 3 am also the co-author with my father, who is the Chief 4 Medical Examiner in New York City, on a book called, 5 Forensic Pathology, which kind of covers all the other 6 areas of forensic pathology except for gunshot wounds, 7 which I covered in the other book. 8 Q. In addition to your father, you have 9 other pathologists in the family, do you not? 10 A. Actually, I -- well, yes, I guess 11 that's right. The older of my three sisters is a 12 pathologist and my son is a pathologist in Houston, 13 hospital pathology, he is not interested in forensics. 14 Q. You also have a sister who is a 15 pediatrics physician? 16 A. No, two sisters in pediatrics. 17 Q. Two, excuse me. Doctor, in addition 18 to the books, you have published 70 or 80 articles, have 19 you not? 20 A. 70 articles, 7 book chapters and 10 or 21 11 professional scientific letters. 22 23 24 (Whereupon, the following 25 mentioned item was Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4532 1 marked for 2 identification only as 3 Defendant's Exhibit No. 94, 4 after which time the 5 proceedings were 6 resumed on the record 7 in open court, as 8 follows:) 9 10 BY MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: 11 Q. I have marked for identification and 12 record purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 94, your CV, which 13 would acquaint the jurors with your background and 14 qualifications? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. All right. 17 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We will offer 19 into evidence what has been marked and identified as 20 Defendant's Exhibit No. 94. 21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: No objection. 22 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit 94 is 23 admitted. 24 25 (Whereupon, the item Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4533 1 Heretofore mentioned 2 Was received in evidence as 3 Defendant's Exhibit No. 94 4 For all purposes, 5 After which time, the 6 Proceedings were resumed 7 As follows:) 8 9 10 (Whereupon, the following 11 mentioned items were 12 marked for 13 identification only 14 as Defendant's Exhibits 15 No. 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 16 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 17 92, 93 and 95, 18 after which time the 19 proceedings were 20 resumed on the record 21 in open court, as 22 follows:) 23 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Your Honor, at 25 this time, I'm going to offer into evidence what has been Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4534 1 marked and identified as Defendant's Exhibits 82, 83, 84, 2 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 95? 3 THE COURT: Any objection? 4 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Wait a minute. 5 What is 93? 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 93 was Dr. Santos 7 report. I think it was already in. I just couldn't find 8 it. 9 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: No objection. 10 THE COURT: All right. Defendant's 11 Exhibits 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 12 and 95 are admitted. 13 14 (Whereupon, the above 15 Mentioned items were 16 Received in evidence 17 As Defendant's Exhibits 18 No. 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 19 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 95 20 For all purposes, after 21 Which time, the 22 Proceedings were 23 Resumed on the record, 24 In open court, 25 As follows:) Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4535 1 2 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 3 Q. Doctor, so that we might identify 4 these exhibits, Defendant's Exhibit 93 is an operative 5 record that was dictated by Dr. Patrick Dillawn, and also 6 bears the name of Alex Santos? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. All right. And you have had that in 9 the past, a copy of that to refer to? 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. Okay. And then Defendant's Exhibit 12 No. 95 is a Polaroid photograph that has been admitted 13 into evidence that is dated 6-6-of 96, at 16:05 hours, 14 which would be, I suspect military time, for 4:05 P.M. of 15 Darlie Routier. This picture was taken June the 6th of 16 1996. I'm sorry. Can you see it now? 17 A. Yes. Okay. 18 Q. Also, you have had occasion to see 19 that, have you not? 20 A. Yes, I have. 21 Q. All right. And, could you come up 22 here so that Richard, and John maybe, so we can show the 23 jury the various photographs that we're talking about? 24 Maybe each could hold three or four. 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4536 1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I just 2 want them generally to be familiar with the photographs 3 that we have here. 4 THE COURT: I understand. All right. 5 Maybe we could get in line in order so we don't inundate 6 the jury. 7 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Should I be at 8 the end? 9 THE COURT: Well, let's put it at the 10 other side. We would never place you at the end. 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I said the ones 12 in the hospital are June the 6th, the Polaroid is June 13 the 6th, and the deals where she is standing in clothing 14 other than hospital, are June the 10th. 15 16 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 17 Q. Dr. DiMaio, in reviewing Defendant's 18 Exhibit No. 93, that is the operative report, did you 19 determine from that report that Darlie Routier had 20 experienced considerable blood loss? 21 A. The -- yes, sir. That in conjunction 22 with the lab reports. That is, the report by Dr. Santos 23 describes an incised wound, running down the right side 24 of the neck onto the chest, and then a continuation on 25 the left side of the chest. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4537 1 And, he indicates that the -- he calls 2 it a laceration, it's really an incised wound, a cut -- 3 extend down to the sheath of the carotid artery, and this 4 is almost like a thin, transparent membrane, the best way 5 to think of it, it looks like Saran Wrap, so, that was 6 wrapping the vessel, and it is about a millimeter thick, 7 there may be a little more there. 8 So, essentially, you are talking about 9 a cut that went down to, virtually, the wall of the 10 carotid artery. And, if it had severed the carotid 11 artery, she would have bled to death, because the blood 12 would have pumped out in a matter of a few minutes and 13 there would have been death. 14 When you look at the rest of the 15 medical records, they indicate that when she came into 16 the hospital, she had a blood hemoglobin, that is the 17 amount of -- that is kind of a measurement, the amount of 18 hemoglobin that you have in your blood. 19 A blood hemoglobin level of about 11.6 20 and this is about 3:30 in the morning. Then by the next 21 day, it had dropped two points, from 11.6 down to 9.6, 22 and what happened was is that she had lost a significant 23 amount of blood from this injury. And -- but it's not 24 initially reflected. That is, what happens is that when 25 you lose blood, your body compensates for it by Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4538 1 mobilizing fluid from outside the bloodstream and pours 2 it in. 3 In addition, when you go to the 4 hospital, you know, they run those IV's, they are putting 5 in fluids. So what happened is, is that her hemoglobin 6 appeared relatively normal when she came in, because the 7 blood not been diluted by the fluids. The fluids came 8 in, it dropped. And what it meant was, that she had lost 9 a significant amount of blood from these wounds. And in 10 fact, one of the diagnosis was acute posthemorrhagic 11 anemia, which meant she lost a lot of blood. 12 So this, these wounds were not, you 13 know, that and the other wounds on the arm, caused a drop 14 of two points in her hemoglobin, which is a significant 15 drop. 16 Q. Okay. Dr. DiMaio, what is your 17 evaluation as regards to the seriousness of that neck 18 wound? 19 A. About another millimeter or two, and 20 she would have been dead. It would have cut right 21 through the carotid artery. 22 In theory, you could put pressure on 23 to stop it, but, you know, in a real life situation, 24 people aren't trained like physicians, and she would have 25 bled to death. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4539 1 It's -- the carotid artery, or the two 2 carotid arteries deliver 75 percent of the blood going to 3 your head. So, she would have lost approximately 40 4 percent of the blood supply going to her head. And every 5 time her heart beat, there would have been a pulse of 6 blood shooting out the neck, four or five feet, if she 7 had cut the carotid artery. And, the cut was, as I said, 8 down to the sheath, a millimeter thick, maybe. 9 Q. Dr. DiMaio, have you had the 10 opportunity to view the photographs taken of Darlie 11 Routier on June the 6th, there in the hospital? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And, have you also had occasion to 14 review and evaluate the photographs where she is in, not 15 in hospital garb but in regular civilian clothes, shorts, 16 I believe, the photographs that were taken on June the 17 10th of 1996? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. Do the bruises on June the 10th 20 of 1996 demonstrate bruising? 21 A. Yes. I mean, if you look at her arms 22 on the 10th, you can see there is just massive soft 23 tissue hemorrhage. 24 This is her right arm. And what it is 25 going from the wrist right up to past the elbow and into Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4540 1 the upper arm, so it's going, just sweeping, all the way 2 here on what you would call the plexor surface of the 3 arm, not on the back. And this is extensive hemorrhage. 4 And it appears to be a few days old, because it's 5 turning, it's a good purple color, and it's indicative of 6 severe, blunt trauma. 7 This, you know, everyone bumps into 8 something, an edge or something and gets a little bruise, 9 but just think about, if you have gotten one little 10 bruise, how much force must have been generated, must 11 have been put against this arm to cause the whole arm 12 from the wrist past the elbow, to be bruised. 13 So that is a lot of force. And so 14 there is evidence of really severe injury, and there is 15 like a little, a few little, what appears to be scrapes 16 here, indicating that there was an impact with something. 17 So, you're talking again of severe 18 force. The left arm -- again, this is the right -- the 19 left arm is not too bad. You can see it's going upward 20 to maybe a third to half a way up the forearm on this 21 surface. 22 Q. Doctor, you have noted, that no doubt, 23 that there is evidence in the photograph you have in your 24 left hand or just put down there on it, of a line, an 25 arterial line in her left wrist? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4541 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And also, an IV in her, I guess, what 3 is that, the inside of the left elbow? 4 A. Yes, sir. Right. Yes. 5 Q. That's what I call it. 6 A. All right. That is good enough. 7 Q. All right. At least -- 8 A. At the cubital fossa, let's use the 9 crease. 10 Q. Is that bruising, in your judgment and 11 experience, is that a result of medical intervention? 12 A. No. The bruising here -- I mean, I -- 13 at one time I actually treated live people. I started 14 IV's. That was the day before we had disposable needles, 15 and those needles were dull. 16 I can tell you, I perforated vessels 17 and there was blood, and you did not get this massive 18 hemorrhage into the arms. 19 And I have had IV's started on me, 20 where they have poked through, and you don't get it. 21 This is blunt force injury, and it's deep, it's deep down 22 into the muscle. And so, it was deep down and then 23 gradually the blood percolates up to the surface 24 underneath the skin. 25 Q. Doctor, directing your attention to Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4542 1 the right arm, the photographs that depict the right arm? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And, you will notice two stab wounds 4 in the right forearm? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. One of some two inches in length and 7 the other, of approximately a half inch in length? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Do you have an opinion with respect to 10 whether or not the bruising associated with the right arm 11 was caused by those two stab wounds? 12 A. No. Stab wounds in those locations 13 would not produce that massive bleeding into the arm. 14 And in fact, if you even use a 15 little -- if you think about it, look at where they are. 16 They are on the back, and on the back, there is not much 17 bleeding. Where is all of the bleeding? Let's see, 18 excuse me. 19 There's so many, I have got to juggle 20 these things. It's on the other side. So, these stab 21 wounds have nothing to do with the bleeding in the arm. 22 Q. All right. Doctor, what sort of 23 instrument caused those injuries? 24 A. The two penetrating wounds in the -- 25 Q. No. No. That caused the bruising? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4543 1 A. It would have to be something blunt. 2 By blunt, I mean it doesn't have sharp -- it's not a 3 knife, it's not something with very sharp margins. 4 It could be blows from a fist, because 5 your fist is considered a blunt object. It could be 6 blows from a hard object, people always like baseball 7 bats, things like that. 8 It could be anything that is heavy, 9 that doesn't have any cutting edges and that can be, that 10 could impact hard against the arm, so to cause all this 11 bleeding in this area. 12 Q. Are those injuries consistent and 13 compatible with Darlie Routier having been severely 14 beaten with a blunt, heavy instrument? 15 A. Yes. That is what they are. These 16 are blunt force injuries. Impacting something very hard 17 that produced extensive bleeding into her muscle. 18 Q. Are those injuries consistent and 19 compatible, those shown in the photographs of June the 20 10th, of 1996, are those consistent and compatible, the 21 bruises evidenced in those photographs, with having been 22 received by Darlie Routier during the early morning hours 23 of June the 6th of 1996, some four days or so earlier? 24 A. Yes, sir. The coloration is 25 appropriate, and it is consistent with it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4544 1 Q. Okay. Dr. DiMaio, are those injuries 2 consistent or inconsistent with having been 3 self-inflicted, the bruising? 4 A. That is -- I would say it's 5 inconsistent. I mean, how do you get blunt force 6 injuries here? I mean, it's easy to get blunt force 7 injuries here, if you want, you know, I can bang my arm 8 against the edge here. But to here? And, also, again, 9 it's very wide spread. 10 I mean this, this, a lot of force. 11 You -- everybody has bumped into something and you get a 12 bruise, but look at this. It's just really severe 13 hemorrhage up and down the arm. This is tremendous 14 force. 15 Q. Doctor, what are defensive wounds? 16 A. Defensive wounds are injuries that you 17 get when you try to ward off an attacker. And, the 18 original description had to do with knives, and it could 19 also be blunt force. 20 In other words, if somebody is 21 swinging something hard at you like a hard object, and 22 you put your arm up like that and you get injuries here 23 and here, then you have what is called defensive wounds, 24 because they are incurred when you try to protect 25 yourself. And people will typically protect the most Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4545 1 important part of the body, that is the head. So people 2 tend to raise arms up, if it's a blunt force, and try to 3 protect their face and head. 4 Q. Doctor, I'll ask you to refer to the 5 photographs and see if they don't depict an injury to the 6 neck of Darlie Routier, an injury, a stab wound to the 7 left chest of Darlie Routier, cuts to the left, inside 8 fingers to three of her fingers on her left hand, and two 9 stab wounds in her right forearm? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. All right. Would you characterize any 12 of those injuries as defensive wounds? 13 A. The wounds that you would consider 14 defensive would be the wounds of the back of the right 15 forearm. This is a close-up in my right hand. This is 16 the type of wound that if somebody was trying to stab at 17 you with a knife, what do you do? You put your am up. 18 And there are two stab wounds here and here. 19 If she had been dead, and I had done 20 an autopsy, I would have called -- I would have put this 21 section down as two penetrating stab wounds of the right 22 forearm, parenthesis, defense wounds. Because this is 23 the location that you get these wounds in, if somebody is 24 going to attack you with a knife. It's typical. 25 That is, people who commit suicide Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4546 1 will cut themselves here. Why? Because this is the 2 natural way to do it. Although, they cut the edge, this 3 way. But these are vertically oriented, you know, on the 4 hands in its normal position, and on the back. And this 5 is typical for the defense wounds, when someone is coming 6 at you with a knife and you hold your arm up in the front 7 of you, and this is where you would get the defense 8 wounds. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And the other place you get defense 11 wound are on the hands. In fact, the original 12 description of defense wounds is on the hands. 13 Because what happens is someone comes 14 at you with a knife, you try to ward them off, a lot of 15 times they try to grab the blade, and you can see there 16 is a cut going across, a very superficial cut going from 17 one finger to the other and there. This has the 18 appearance of one single cut. 19 All right. I know someone says, 20 "Well, they don't exactly line up," but you know, your 21 fingers, you don't walk around with your hand like that, 22 I mean, you curl them and then maybe down or up. And 23 this has the appearance, again of a defense wound. 24 Again, if this was an autopsy case, I 25 would put, you know, incised wounds of fingers, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4547 1 parenthesis, defense wounds. 2 Q. Okay. Dr. DiMaio, have you had 3 occasion in the past to examine injuries or render an 4 opinion as regards to whether or not those injuries were 5 self-inflicted? 6 A. Yes. The last time I think was about, 7 just before Christmas. A nurse shot her, I think it was 8 common-in-law husband, and her defense was is that he 9 attacked her with a knife. And, you know, they were 10 obviously self-inflicted wounds. 11 And my office has had two other -- in 12 the last three or four years, two other cases where the 13 defense was, you know, it was self-defense, and I had 14 to -- I warded off a knife, and these are defense wounds, 15 you know, these wounds were incurred, but actually they 16 were incised wounds. 17 One was, I think, an oral surgeon, 18 another one, a dentist. And again, I had another case of 19 a doctor who self-inflicted wounds and was trying to say 20 he was attacked. 21 Q. All right. Dr. DiMaio, assume that 22 Darlie Routier is right-handed, are those injuries that 23 you observed in the photographs, are they consistent or 24 inconsistent with self-infliction? 25 A. They are inconsistent with Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4548 1 self-infliction. Both the wounds, the stab wounds on the 2 back of the right forearm and the stab wounds on the 3 neck. Because if you look at the -- really, incised 4 wounds. When I say incised, I mean a cut. 5 And, an incised wound is when, you 6 know, the sharp edge of a knife runs across her body, but 7 a stab wound is the tip going into it. And, you can see 8 here and here (demonstrating), then if we go close up, 9 this is a much better close-up. 10 And what this shows, is that this 11 wound has started on the right side of her neck here, 12 across the midline going in a downward path, and then, 13 there is a gap and then there is a second wound. 14 So essentially, if you look at me, 15 there is an incised wound going like this, gap, and then 16 there is another knife wound here. And, you know, if you 17 think -- the ruler -- think about this. 18 If this is a knife and you're 19 right-handed, I mean, you are going to have to be going 20 like this, the edge of the knife, and then skipping a 21 place, like that, then, changing hands and doing two stab 22 wounds here, this way. 23 And, because, you know, people don't 24 do things the hard way. They do things simple. So, 25 this, you know, try and say, you know, you are going to Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4549 1 cut like this, and then you have to cut like that, and 2 then stab, doesn't make any sense for self-inflicted 3 wounds, for a right-handed person. 4 And people who are right-handed use 5 their right hand for self-infliction of the wounds, 6 because you don't think about it. If I handed any of you 7 this, you would pick it up with your dominant hand. You 8 wouldn't think anything. 9 You wouldn't pick it up with your left 10 hand and manipulate it. It's too difficult. And people 11 don't think about that. They are not going to say, "Oh, 12 I'm going to switch hands." Now, like I said, the people 13 I saw were doctors and nurses and they self-inflicted 14 with the right hand, which was their dominant. 15 The wound on the neck is -- if I may 16 demonstrate on you? 17 Q. Sure. 18 THE WITNESS: May I, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: That is quite all right. 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: That is why I got 21 the ruler. 22 23 (Whereupon, the witness 24 Stepped down from the 25 Witness stand, and Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4550 1 Approached the jury rail 2 And the proceedings were 3 Resumed as follows:) 4 5 THE WITNESS: As I said, this, and 6 then you have to turn it like this, doesn't make any 7 sense. But that makes sense, or, that make sense. Okay? 8 And, what happens, you notice how he 9 cringed? Well, let's go in slow motion. The knife comes 10 here, and starts to cut, and what will you do, you'll 11 lean back. 12 And of course, when you lean back, 13 there's a gap, but you stick your chest out and you get 14 here. So it's like this, now lean back and so there is a 15 gap. Stand straight. 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: The cut comes down like 18 that, and now you start to go back. And notice how you 19 get a skip, and if you look at these wounds, they line 20 up. 21 22 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 23 Q. Would that be the same if I were -- 24 could you demonstrate that same thing if I were lying on 25 a sofa? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4551 1 A. Sure. It's the same thing. Well, it 2 doesn't make everybody horizontal, but it's the same way. 3 If you look at this, this is one wound coming straight 4 down this way. It's coming from here, gap, space. 5 And this is not consistent with 6 someone self-inflicting it with the right hand. I mean, 7 obviously, you can't stab yourself in the back. And 8 people who do self-inflict wounds, will always use their 9 dominant hand, because that is how you are taught to use 10 knives and things. 11 12 THE COURT: Thank you, Doctor. All 13 right. We will recess for lunch now. Until 10 minutes 14 after 1:00 o'clock. 15 All right. Same instructions to the 16 jury as always: Don't discuss the case among yourselves, 17 or with anyone. Do no investigation on your own. If you 18 see any publicity about the case either on radio or T.V., 19 newspapers, please ignore it. Thank you. 20 21 (Whereupon, a short 22 recess was taken, after 23 which time, the 24 proceedings were 25 resumed in open court, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4552 1 in the presence and 2 hearing of the 3 Defendant, being 4 represented by his 5 Attorney, but outside of 6 the presence of the jury 7 as follows:) 8 9 THE COURT: Are both sides ready to 10 bring the jury back in and resume the trial? 11 MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: Yes, sir. 12 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, the State 13 is ready. 14 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury 15 in, please. 16 Will the Court come to order, please. 17 THE BAILIFF: Please have a seat. 18 19 (Whereupon, the jury 20 was returned to the 21 courtroom, and the 22 proceedings were 23 resumed on the record, 24 in open court, in the 25 presence and hearing Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4553 1 of the defendant, 2 as follows:) 3 4 THE COURT: All right. Let the record 5 reflect that all parties in the trial are present and the 6 jury is seated. 7 Mr. Mulder. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 9 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 12 13 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 14 Q. Dr. DiMaio, are you familiar with 15 blood pattern interpretation? 16 A. To a certain degree, yes, sir. 17 Q. And Dr. DiMaio, as a medical doctor, 18 what aspects and variables from a medical standpoint must 19 be taken into consideration in blood pattern 20 interpretation? 21 22 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge -- excuse 23 me, Doctor -- could we approach the bench for one moment? 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4554 1 (Whereupon, a short 2 discussion was held 3 at the side of the 4 bench, between the Court, 5 and the attorneys for 6 both sides in the case, 7 off the record, and outside 8 of the hearing of the 9 Jury, after which time, 10 the proceedings were 11 resumed on the record, 12 in the presence of 13 the jury as follows:) 14 15 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Go 16 ahead. 17 18 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 19 Q. Dr. DiMaio, what are the variables 20 that have to be taken into consideration from a medical 21 doctor's standpoint in blood pattern interpretation? 22 A. Okay. Essentially, bleeding is not a 23 simplistic thing. So, if you have -- some people think, 24 you know, if you cut yourself or you have a wound, 25 everybody bleeds the same. But there are a lot of things Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4555 1 that go into how you bleed. 2 One of the simplest is, it has to do 3 with what is called, the Langer's lines, the elastic 4 fibers in your skin. 5 We all know as we get older, our skin 6 sags. And what happens is is that in the skin, beneath 7 the skin, there are elastic fibers and they make the skin 8 very contract, you know, contractile. 9 And, they run certain ways through the 10 body. And, have you ever seen anyone with a vertical 11 scar on their forehead, you notice how it stands out, but 12 then you see people who have horizontal scars and it gets 13 lost in the normal folds. 14 And plastic surgeons take advantage of 15 these elastic fibers to hide their scars. And so, if 16 you -- let's say you have been stabbed. Suppose you get 17 stabbed, if you get stabbed perpendicular to Langer's 18 lines, the elastic fibers pull open the wound and you get 19 a lot of blood coming out, if there is a vessel 20 underneath that is spurting, it will spurt out. 21 If you cut along the fibers, the wound 22 tends to be slit-like and it may not begin bleeding 23 immediately, or if it does bleed, it will not bleed as 24 much as the vertical one. 25 Then you have to take other factors. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4556 1 Right beneath the skin in most parts of the body, you 2 have muscle. And everybody has had a muscle cramp, you 3 know, when the muscle contracts down. 4 Suppose you get a stab wound in the 5 chest here, through the muscle. Is the stab wound 6 parallel or perpendicular to Langer's lines? Then when 7 it goes in, is it running with the muscle or against it? 8 If it's running against the muscle, the wound will gape 9 open. 10 If it's running with the muscle, it 11 will be slit-like. And then you are irritating the 12 muscle, will it go into a cramp and shut down and reduce 13 the amount of bleeding? 14 Then, suppose you do have a stab wound 15 going through here. And then suppose you move your arm 16 or maybe your arm had already been moved in an unusual 17 position when you had the wound, and now you moved it 18 back, the muscle can slide over, and there could be 19 contraction. 20 So, a simple stab wound may not be 21 simple. The amount of bleeding may be determined by 22 Langer's lines, the elasticity of the skin, whether you 23 are cutting against the muscle or with the muscle, 24 whether the muscle contracts down. 25 And then, when you get into a body Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4557 1 cavity, do you hit a large vessel? Does the bleeding 2 from the large vessel go into the cavity first, and then 3 leak out? Or does it -- is the vessel so close to the 4 surface that it pulsates out? 5 Then, of course, you have clothing. 6 You have, say, a shirt like that. You get a stab wound 7 here and then the clothing shifts, or maybe the clothing 8 had been pulled over when you got the stab wound. 9 Now the clothing shifts over it. And 10 so that affects the way you're bleeding. So the concept 11 people have is you get a wound and the blood comes out in 12 a simple pattern. It is not that simple. 13 There are a number of factors that can 14 determine how much blood comes out, how fast, and whether 15 it comes out in spurts or kind of dribbles out, and 16 unfortunately, some people don't take that into account 17 in bloodstain interpretation and that is the Achilles 18 heel of bloodstain interpretation. 19 It makes an assumption that is not 20 true. That all wounds are equal, all wounds bleed the 21 same, and that you can -- you have -- you are starting 22 out with a fixed concept, or fixed concept and then you 23 can interpret, and it doesn't always happen that way. 24 On top of that, you will actually get 25 certain areas of the body where you will get a wound, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4558 1 may not get any bleeding because the initial response to 2 the shock is contraction down of the blood vessels. Even 3 if you have like a major artery, like the carotid artery. 4 If you cut it, suppose you don't cut it all the way, you 5 only cut it part of the way, and then someone else gets 6 it cut all the way. Which wound is worse? 7 Actually, it's the wound where you 8 only cut part of the way, because if you cut it 9 completely through, an artery, which is elastic like 10 that, may go into contraction and may actually shut off 11 both ends for a short time before it pulsates. 12 But if you cut it open, you maintain 13 the open lumen of the vessel and the blood keeps pumping 14 out. So the thing is bleeding and wounds and how the 15 blood comes out is complex and it's not simple, and to 16 try to assume everybody and every wound will bleed the 17 same, doesn't work out. And again, that is the Achilles 18 heel. 19 Q. So, I guess what you are saying is 20 that, when somebody gets a stab wound or a puncture 21 wound, the body doesn't always bleed like water runs out 22 of faucet, when you turn the faucet on. 23 A. Right. It depends on, again, all of 24 these factors, including clothing, whether it's with the 25 grain, against the grain, whether it's muscle, whether Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4559 1 you hit a vessel, there's a whole bunch of things. And 2 you can only generalize, but it may not actually, what 3 you may say, may not apply in this case. But you can 4 just get a general feel. 5 Q. Dr. DiMaio, have you seen many victims 6 of stab wounds? 7 A. Yes. I would say a couple hundred in 8 the last few years. 9 Q. Let me show you what's been marked for 10 identification and record purposes as State's Exhibit No. 11 25. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And it has quite a number of holes 14 that are taken for evidence purposes. But it also has a 15 hole here, a defect here, and it has a defect here, and 16 it has a defect here. 17 I was thinking there were four of 18 those defects, but at any rate, here, here and here. Do 19 you routinely find defects in clothing worn by a victim 20 where there is no corresponding stab wound or cut on the 21 body itself? 22 A. All the time. 23 Q. How is that? 24 A. Because essentially, what you are 25 talking in most cases, it's not just somebody sticking a Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4560 1 knife in. There is a struggle. And you try to grab 2 people, and most stabbings are close combat. 3 Suppose you grab a shirt like this, 4 and you pull it, and then a knife blade comes toward you, 5 and you pull back, so it cuts the material. 6 But, let's put it this way: I would 7 say that maybe a quarter of all cases, you will find a 8 little tear, you know, of multiple stab wound cases, a 9 little tear, a point where the tip of the knife has gone 10 through, and even a slash, and on the body it doesn't 11 correspond. 12 Because what's happened is, during the 13 struggle the clothing has been pulled away, or it -- 14 maybe just hangs down, and so, when someone slashes the 15 knife, it catches the material, but it doesn't go in deep 16 enough to cut the body. 17 So that's just common, all the time 18 you will find defects in the clothing, and no injury to 19 the underlying body. An examination of the clothing at 20 the time of the autopsy is part of the autopsy. 21 In my autopsy reports, and every one 22 that comes out of my office, if the person is wearing 23 clothing and we have the clothing, in the autopsy report 24 will not only be a description of the body, but will be a 25 description of the clothing, and whether there are Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4561 1 corresponding defects or noncorresponding defects in that 2 clothing. 3 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Thank you, 4 Doctor. 5 Mr. Shook will have some questions for 6 you. 7 8 9 CROSS EXAMINATION 10 11 BY MR. TOBY SHOOK: 12 Q. Dr. DiMaio, it's my understanding you 13 are the chief medical examiner of San Antonio? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. And additionally, you make 16 extra money coming in and testifying at -- out of other 17 jurisdictions? 18 A. Right. I am not here as -- in my 19 official capacity as chief medical examiner. I am here 20 on my own time, compensatory time, and this is what I do, 21 you know, it's work on the side. 22 Q. And when you are testifying as an 23 expert, for instance, today, how much -- what is your fee 24 that you charge for that? 25 A. It depends on how far I have to go and Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4562 1 it depends on how long, it depends on how much time. 2 Q. In this particular case? 3 A. I think my total bill, when I submit 4 it, is going to be about fifteen hundred dollars. 5 Q. Okay. And, you, in recent years 6 testified for, as I said, the defense in cases such as 7 this, haven't you? 8 A. Yes, most of my testimony is for the 9 prosecution in Bexar County, obviously, because that is 10 where my job is. And then I -- on private, I do about 11 half the time for the prosecution and half the time for 12 defense. This Friday I was testifying for the 13 prosecution in Florida, and Tuesday I am testifying for 14 the defense. 15 Q. A medical examiner is not supposed to 16 be biased one way or the other; is that right, Dr. 17 DiMaio? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You just, you get the body in and you 20 do the autopsy, and you testify to questions asked about 21 what you found; is that right? 22 A. Right. And that is what I'm doing 23 here. I am just testifying to my scientific observations 24 of the wounds in this case. 25 Q. And, you have testified for Mr. Mulder Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4563 1 before, haven't you? 2 A. When he was a district attorney, yes, 3 and also when he was in private practice. 4 Q. How many times have you testified for 5 him since he has been in private practice, would you say? 6 A. Maybe four or five times. 7 Q. Okay. And have you consulted with him 8 on other cases? 9 A. Well, he's shown me occasionally a 10 case or two, and I have told him things. 11 Q. Did you make any report in regards to 12 this case? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Any notes in regards to this case? 15 A. Just this sheet right here. If you 16 want to take a look at it. 17 Q. And then the -- the only other items 18 you looked at were the photographs? 19 A. And the medical records. 20 Q. And the medical records. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you look at all of the medical 23 records? 24 A. What? Well, on my testimony. I've 25 also -- I also have here some testimony by Dr. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4564 1 Townsend-Parchman, but I'm not using any of that. Do you 2 want to take a look? 3 Q. Yes. But you had the Baylor medical 4 records to look at; is that right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Okay. And is that -- and then you had 7 some photographs. When is the first time you looked at 8 these photographs? 9 A. When I was originally given them by -- 10 it was by Mr. Parks. 11 Q. Okay. You have not interviewed anyone 12 else in regards to your testimony or opinions? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Have not talked to Dr. Santos or Dr. 15 Dillawn or any of the nurses at Baylor, have you? 16 A. No, I have just read his medical 17 records and such, yes. 18 Q. Okay. And you said that you worked on 19 several cases where people have committed self-inflicted 20 wounds to try to, I guess, what, cover their tracks or 21 throw off blame on them? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Situations like that? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. So you do see that from time to time, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4565 1 don't you? People will go to the trouble of actually 2 having a self-inflicted wound to try to shove blame off 3 on them? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Or point it in another direction? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. I guess, in your line of work, it 8 never ceases to amaze you what people can be capable of? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you say that -- well, let 11 me start this way. You talk about -- 12 A. Excuse me. 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. Are you through with my material, or 15 do you want to look through it? 16 Q. Well, I was going to look at here in a 17 second. 18 A. Okay. That is fine. 19 Q. Would it be better -- 20 A. No, no, no. Go ahead and look at it. 21 Q. I'll leave it with you in case you 22 need to refer to it. 23 A. Okay. My piece of paper. 24 25 THE COURT: Can you all hear him okay? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4566 1 THE JURORS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. All right. 3 4 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 5 Q. Now, as far as the seriousness of the 6 defendant's wounds, Dr. DiMaio, wouldn't the surgeons who 7 actually performed the surgery on her, be a better judge 8 of how serious those injuries were? 9 A. Well, yes, sir. And that is why I'm 10 using their description that it went down to the carotid 11 sheath. If you are down to the carotid sheath, you are 12 within one or two millimeters of the carotid artery. 13 And then, of course, the medical 14 records, also -- I'm answering you now -- all the medical 15 records also show the hemoglobin has dropped by two 16 milligrams. So -- 17 Q. But would you agree, Doctor, that the 18 surgeons who actually performed the surgery would be a 19 better judge to how serious their injuries -- or her 20 injuries were? 21 A. They might be, yes, sir. 22 Q. Well, they were there, weren't they? 23 A. Yes, sir, but I don't know what -- but 24 I mean, you know, it's like saying, someone shot at me 25 with a .44 magnum and it missed me, so therefore, it Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4567 1 wasn't very serious. 2 Q. Doctor, that is not the question I 3 asked you. They were there, weren't they? 4 A. Right, yes, sir, they were. 5 Q. Okay. They performed the surgery on 6 her neck, didn't they, Dr. DiMaio? 7 A. Yes, sir. And I'm basing my opinion 8 on their description of it. 9 Q. They saw the wound opened and operated 10 on it? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. So wouldn't they be the better judge 13 of just how serious that injury was? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Now, as far as your opinion 16 about the defendant self-inflicting these wounds, are you 17 saying that it is impossible, that it couldn't have 18 happened? 19 A. No. What I'm saying is, that based 20 upon their location and their path, and the nature of the 21 wounds, it is more probable, the term I used, that it's 22 inflicted by someone else. Anything is possible, but I 23 am saying in this case, it's not probable. 24 Q. Okay. And as far as the neck wound, 25 you were talking about -- well, how would you describe Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4568 1 the neck wound? Is it -- it's a pretty long wound, I 2 guess, wouldn't you say? 3 A. It looks to be about three inches or 4 so, the primary wound. 5 Q. Okay. Have you actually gotten to 6 examine her scar? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Would that help you in some of 9 your opinions, if you got to look close at the scar? 10 A. It doesn't make any difference because 11 it is pictured in the photographs. 12 Q. Okay. So those would be fine for you? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. You said -- do you have any 15 opinion as to how fast that wound would bleed out? You 16 were talking about when Mr. Mulder was finishing these -- 17 what did you call them? Langer's lines? 18 A. The Langer's lines, yes, sir. 19 Q. Did that make a difference in this 20 case, or do you have an opinion as to how fast the neck 21 wound might bleed? 22 A. No, sir. All I know is that, you 23 know, she lost two milligrams -- two grams of hemoglobin. 24 Q. If that neck was cut, or when it was 25 cut, would you expect it to bleed pretty quickly? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4569 1 A. It would begin bleeding fairly 2 quickly, within 30 seconds to a minute, yes, sir. 3 Q. Would a neck wound like that bleed a 4 lot, have a lot of blood coming out of it? 5 A. Under most conditions, it would bleed 6 a lot, yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. And, how would you describe the 8 position of this wound on the neck. Is it -- I mean, 9 let's say, she didn't survive, she had died. How would 10 you describe it in an autopsy? 11 A. An incised wound. 12 Q. Okay. And what position would you say 13 it was on the neck? 14 A. Okay. It's on the -- okay, it would 15 be an incised wound of the anterior aspect of the neck, 16 beginning, say, this is -- I'm just throwing numbers out 17 saying -- 18 Q. Sure. 19 A. -- 2 inches to the right of the 20 midline, above -- say an inch or two above the clavicle, 21 the collarbone and running downward and medially, that is 22 towards the center of the body, crossing the midline and 23 extending towards the medial end, that is the inner end 24 of the left collarbone. And the incised wound extends 25 down through the muscle, up to the carotid sheath. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4570 1 Q. Okay. How about the angle? How 2 severe an angle is the neck wound? 3 A. What do you mean, how severe an angle? 4 Q. Well, is it, like, vertical, oblique, 5 horizontal? 6 A. It's an oblique. It's running 7 downward from right to left. 8 Q. As far as the neck wound goes, would 9 you say it was a pretty long wound? 10 A. Well -- 11 Q. I think it's in the medical -- 12 A. It's a couple of inches, right. I 13 think it says 7.5 centimeters or so. Let me see how long 14 is this drawing? 15 Q. I thought I saw nine millimeters. 16 A. Nine centimeters? 17 Q. Or centimeters, I'm not sure. 18 A. Okay. Nine centimeters then would be 19 approximately four and a half inches. No, let me see, 20 no. It's three and a half inches, that is what I said. 21 Okay. It's 2.5 centimeters per inch and 10 centimeters 22 would be four inches. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. So, it's a little less than four 25 inches. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4571 1 Q. A little less then four inches. 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And looking at the photograph here in 4 28-B, it covers most of the front of the neck, I guess, 5 wouldn't you say? 6 A. It begins to the right of the midline, 7 runs downward onto the upper chest, right. Yes, sir, so 8 that is the primary one. 9 Q. So we're talking about all down the 10 front of the neck? Starting at the top right and going 11 down? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Now, you can't say, or maybe you can, 14 if it started here or there? I mean, at which end it 15 starts, the cut? Can you tell us which end, just looking 16 at it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. So it could go this way or that way? 19 A. You could in theory say, it went up 20 this way. But of course, the problem there is if you are 21 trying to say it was self-inflicted, it becomes even more 22 difficult. 23 Q. Now Doctor, are you saying that the 24 defendant could not take this knife --- oh, I think we -- 25 she could cut her own neck with this knife, couldn't she? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4572 1 A. Well, I said it's possible, but 2 improbable due to the -- if you look at it, see how it 3 comes down and then skips and then down. 4 Q. Well, that is if you take it through 5 that that is one long, continuous cut, right? 6 A. Yes, sir, and it lines up, and it's 7 consistent with it. Down, then you come, as you're 8 coming, then you come back and put your chest out and 9 then it catches it. 10 Q. Well, I don't want to use this knife 11 on myself, obviously. Let's try to measure it up here. 12 But there is nothing -- 13 A. It would settle the problem, how fast 14 the bleeding was, you know. 15 Q. Yeah. All right. Well, I don't think 16 I will be demonstrating it. Maybe Mr. Mulder could come 17 up here and do that. 18 19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Hand me the 20 knife, I'll do it. 21 22 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 23 Q. But there is nothing -- nothing that 24 would prevent her from taking that knife, if she wanted 25 to, and cutting across here? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4573 1 A. That's correct. Then she would have 2 to cut again, then she would have to change hands. 3 Q. Yes. And then do -- 4 A. Turn her arm like that. 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. But, what I'm saying is, it's 7 improbable. 8 Q. It's improbable? 9 A. Yes, because people who we've seen and 10 who have had incised, who do try to do that, do the same 11 thing, they always use the dominant hand, the right hand. 12 It's so ingrained that you don't even think about it. 13 Q. That is what people usually do? 14 A. Right. These people are, you know -- 15 Q. Okay. But there is nothing preventing 16 the -- 17 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Excuse me. 19 Excuse me. If you just will let him answer. 20 THE WITNESS: These people, no insult 21 to the defendant, but they're a little better -- they 22 were better educated than her and they are familiar with 23 medical things and they may even be familiar with 24 forensics, which I seriously doubt that she is. 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4574 1 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 2 Q. But there would be nothing preventing 3 the defendant from -- take the knife with the left hand, 4 stabbing it right there in the right arm. She could do 5 that, couldn't she? 6 A. That's what I said. I said it's 7 possible, but not probable. 8 Q. Well, in fact, there were two wounds 9 there on the right arm, aren't there? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. One is much smaller? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Didn't even require any sutures or 14 anything. This wound we're talking about right here? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And, is this wound kind of right here, 17 Doctor, would you say in the middle of the forearm or 18 near the elbow? 19 A. It's on -- it's approaching the side 20 of the arm. 21 Q. Okay. And this other one is right 22 above it? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. It's actually a little further towards Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4575 1 the finger. 2 Q. You talk about hesitation wounds, that 3 is when a person might work up enough courage, or testing 4 out, for instance, sometimes you get suicides, they might 5 cut a little bit before they make the big cut. Is that 6 right? 7 A. Hesitation marks are associated with 8 incised wounds, right. Cuts where they start to make a 9 cut and it hurts, and then they start and it hurts, so 10 you will see a number of smaller wounds. 11 Q. This smaller wound we see here could 12 be consistent with sort of a hesitation wound, couldn't 13 it? 14 A. You could say that if you think 15 it's -- if you think they are self-inflicted. Or, if 16 it's not self-inflicted, it's just a small stab wound. 17 Q. Right. It could go either way? But 18 it could be consistent with someone stabbing their arm 19 and then stabbing it with greater force right below it. 20 A. Right. What I am talking about is 21 medical probability. I'm not talking about possibility. 22 Q. And, again, as far as the angle goes, 23 right-handed, I mean, do you think it's real difficult 24 just to do that? 25 A. It actually is. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4576 1 Q. Well, I'm doing it, aren't I? 2 A. Yes, I know. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. But well, okay. Never mind. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. It's difficult, but then again, okay, 7 so you do it this way, which is difficult, it's easier 8 just to go this way, and most people would go this way. 9 Why go this way? Why do it difficult? 10 First of all, if you're going to cut 11 yourself and you know it's going to hurt and everything, 12 why do it the hard way? Why not just go that way? 13 You are saying she went that way, then 14 put the knife in her other hand and then stabbed herself. 15 Q. Could do it? Could happen though? 16 A. It could happen, but -- 17 Q. Nothing could stop her and it's not 18 physically impossible to do that? 19 A. It's not possible (sic) -- it's not 20 impossible, I said it's not probable. 21 Q. As far as that blunt trauma goes, that 22 is severe blunt trauma; is it not? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And the bruising that you see there, 25 you said -- could that be consistent with just being two Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4577 1 days old? 2 A. It looks to be a couple of days old. 3 That's all I will say. You can't date it any better. 4 Q. You can't come to dating them real 5 close, can you, Doctor? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. If this photograph was taken on the 8 10th, it's possible that injury could have happened on 9 the 8th? 10 A. It's possible, yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. This bruise is still -- well, 12 somewhat crimson here on this. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Which shows it's a more recent bruise; 15 is that right? 16 A. Well, I wouldn't say that. I mean, I 17 have said that it can, so I wouldn't push my luck. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Okay. With the coloration. 20 Q. And blunt trauma is caused when 21 something strikes the skin very hard; is that right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. And you have looked at -- it 24 could be like you say, people oftentimes use a bat, 25 right? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4578 1 A. Yeah, I just used it because everyone 2 talks about a bat, but it could be anything hard. 3 Q. Does it look like there might be some 4 kind of pattern to these abrasions? 5 A. The only thing that I saw that 6 suggested a pattern of some sort was those little marks 7 over there, but I'm not going to commit myself. 8 Q. Okay. But this could possibly have a 9 pattern, what you see here, these red -- 10 A. It could be something, right. 11 Q. Okay. And a pattern can be caused 12 when someone, I don't know, well, you tell the jurors how 13 a pattern can show up on skin. 14 A. A pattern indicates that the surface 15 that -- impacting was not smooth. I mean, there was some 16 irregularity on it. 17 Q. A brick, something like that could 18 leave a pattern? 19 A. Yes, sir, anything with a little 20 irregularity on it. 21 Q. Okay. And wherever it strikes the 22 skin, it might leave an abrasion to the skin? Or -- 23 A. Well, only if you hit it on the side, 24 you have to hit the edge. 25 Q. Okay. And you can see, possibly, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4579 1 don't know, but possibly that's what we see here on the 2 forearm? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. These marks? 5 A. There's three or four marks there and 6 I don't know what they are, they may be abrasions and 7 such, but, it's too slim a thing to hang your hat on, I 8 mean. 9 Q. Right. 10 A. Mix up what I'm saying, but, let's put 11 it this way, it's there, the significance, I'm not sure. 12 Q. Well, on Defendant's Exhibit 86, do 13 you also see maybe a similar-type abrasion? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. And on, I think, it's 52-E, you 16 have already pointed out this area. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. But also, right along in there, is 19 there also an area? 20 A. Well, I'm talking about the same 21 thing. 22 Q. All right. All that area. And this 23 bruising, obviously, goes from here to here? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. More on inside; is that right? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4580 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Again, looking at it from the other 3 point of view, if you wanted to self-inflict those 4 wounds, you would just have to take an object and hit the 5 inside of your arm; is that right? 6 A. Interesting, it's again, with the 7 non-dominant hand, yes, sir. 8 Q. If you wanted to do it. Or you could 9 just take your arm against the wall and whack it real 10 hard, couldn't you? 11 A. Not -- the wall wouldn't work because 12 your hand would hit also. 13 Q. Your hand would hit? Okay. But you 14 could do it if you wanted to? 15 A. It's possible. It would be very hard. 16 Q. But again, like you said, in your line 17 of work you see people do all kinds of things? 18 A. Occasionally. 19 Q. You didn't get any information in the 20 medical records that Mrs. Routier had any blunt force 21 trauma to her torso, did you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. To her head or face? 24 A. That's correct. There's photographs 25 of the face and then part of, well, just her upper Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4581 1 extremities, upper chest. 2 Q. Okay. This -- getting back to the 3 neck wound again, it's almost four inches across and 4 extends across the front of the neck; is that right? 5 A. No, it four inches long. It begins in 6 the neck and then runs down onto the chest. 7 Q. Okay. Wouldn't you consider that, as 8 far as a neck wound, a pretty long wound? 9 A. Four inches is fairly long, yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. And is it just one, is it just 11 one wound? The primary one we are talking about on the 12 neck, is that made with one swipe of the knife? 13 A. The only description says, it says one 14 wound, so that's the only thing. But, it's all been 15 sewed up at that point. 16 Q. Okay. Well, looking at the photos and 17 what the description is from the medical reports, that's 18 what it shows? It shows one long -- 19 A. It shows a single swipe, yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. Now, you gave an example of -- 21 well, usually, when you see someone that has been 22 attacked from the front, frontal attack to the neck with, 23 let's say with a knife or sharp instrument? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Those wounds inflicted are usually Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4582 1 short, are they not? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. Here we have a more long, 4 continuous wound? 5 A. Well, okay. 6 Q. Is that different? 7 A. By short, most -- okay, if you are 8 talking about incised wounds of the neck, generally, they 9 run about that size which would probably be about three 10 or four -- three or four inches, you know, three or four 11 inches for a neck wound, could be called short. I mean, 12 they are not going to be one-inch wounds, obviously, they 13 are going to be a couple of inches. 14 Q. Well, just a moment ago you said you 15 would consider it long, did you not? 16 A. Yeah, it's long. It's not short -- 17 but when you ask me about short wounds to the neck, I'm 18 talking three or four inches, too. I mean, I'm 19 talking -- a long wound to the neck is when somebody gets 20 someone behind you and runs it completely around, so you 21 are talking about six or seven inches. 22 But slash wounds of the neck typically 23 run like this, because what happens is they will slash 24 down like this, and so you will see it running about that 25 length. But a long wound would be if you're cutting Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4583 1 someone's throat from ear to ear. 2 Q. Now, defensive wounds, you said that 3 you usually see those on the palms of the hand, don't 4 you? 5 A. No, I said the original description of 6 them is on the palms of the hand, but you will get them 7 on the palms of the hands, and on the back of the 8 forearms, even on the back of the other arms. We have 9 had people lying on the ground who have put their legs up 10 and have gotten them actually in their legs. 11 All that a defense wound means, is 12 that it is a wound incurred, in an extremity, in an 13 attempt to ward off an attacker. 14 Q. And it's just natural to put your 15 hands up and that kind of thing, to block off blows, 16 knife or blunt trauma? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And you will often see, for instance, 19 in a knife attack, wounds to the palms of the hand? 20 A. Well, the fingers and palms, yes, sir. 21 Q. And they can be quite deep? 22 A. They can be deep, yes, sir. 23 Q. Cut to the bone often, don't they? 24 A. They can be, yes, sir. 25 Q. Now, this particular wound to Mrs. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4584 1 Routier's hand, that is not a very deep wound, is it? 2 A. No, it's a very superficial -- there's 3 actually three of them, but I think it's probably one 4 swipe, but they're very superficial. 5 Q. Extremely superficial? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. Also, many times on your 8 defensive wounds, you see them -- what part of the arm do 9 you call this? 10 A. You talking about plexor surface? 11 Q. I guess so. If that is the word I'm 12 looking for. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You put your arm up. You will see 15 cuts across that way in defensive wounds? 16 A. Actually, most defensive wounds from 17 knives are in the back, they are not on this surface. 18 In fact, that's the way you can tell 19 people come in with scars. People come in with scars on 20 this surface, you think they may have tried suicide. 21 This surface, you think they have been in knife fights. 22 So -- 23 Q. What's this surface called? 24 A. That would be the posterior aspect, 25 back of the forearm. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4585 1 Q. And what is this surface called? 2 A. Plexus. Okay. It's this surface, 3 plexor surface. 4 Q. And you are saying you don't see 5 defensive wounds on the plexor surface? 6 A. Well, you can see -- what I'm saying 7 is, you're asking me where they usually occur. And they 8 are classically described as being on the back and not 9 here. 10 These suicidal wounds are described as 11 being on this surface. Homicidal, that is where people 12 attack you, on the back. 13 Q. Okay. Usually, in cases of homicide, 14 the assailant doesn't leave the weapon at the scene, does 15 he? 16 A. Yeah, that's correct. 17 Q. Okay. Another area I wanted to ask 18 you: Did you look at the autopsy reports on the two 19 boys? 20 A. I just briefly went through them, but 21 since I didn't intend to testify in anything about them. 22 Q. I just had one quick question about 23 that. As far as stab wounds in this case or any other 24 case, the angle, how it goes in the body. Let me show 25 you this one. You see this stab wound number 1? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4586 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. It shows the knife coming across this 3 way into the torso. You can't tell from an autopsy if 4 the person was laying on their back and they were being 5 stabbed at this angle, if they were moving around and 6 maybe the knife went in that way; is that right? Do you 7 understand what I am saying? 8 A. Well, I think so. What you're saying 9 is, that just by examining the stab wound alone, you 10 can't say necessarily whether they are standing up or 11 lying down. Is that the question? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. The answer is yes. 14 Q. And even if they were lying down, they 15 could be moving around during the attack when the knife 16 is going in? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay. And as far as blood on the 19 knife, I think that it's your understanding that three 20 people could have been cut with this knife; is that 21 right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Now, if blood of one of the children 24 was not found on this knife, that is not -- you can't 25 say, well, then this knife wasn't used to do the killing, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4587 1 could you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Oftentimes -- 4 A. It's only significant if you find 5 blood, it means something; if you don't find it, it 6 doesn't mean anything. 7 Q. When you stab someone in the body, 8 skin might wipe it off, an organ might wipe it off, that 9 kind of thing? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. As far as -- here, let me give 12 you your notes back. I don't want to forget those. 13 A. Okay. Thank you. 14 Q. The blunt trauma that the defendant 15 received, you wouldn't expect her to sleep through that, 16 would you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. And that is going to hurt when 19 you get hit like that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And, is it a natural reaction, would 22 you say, that the person that is getting hit with blunt 23 trauma, they are going to yell out? 24 A. Well, I would assume -- well, I don't 25 know, I have not beaten anybody, so I can't say. I would Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4588 1 think it would depend on the person, I mean what is going 2 on, I mean, you know. 3 Q. Okay. Nothing -- 4 A. I think that is outside of my area. 5 Q. Nothing would prevent a person from 6 yelling out if they were suddenly attacked in their home 7 and someone started hitting them with a stick, brick or 8 whatever? 9 A. I guess not, no, sir. 10 Q. And certainly, the defendant, when she 11 is stabbed on the throat, wouldn't sleep through that, 12 would you think? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. I mean, they are going to wake up when 15 someone starts cutting you with a knife? 16 A. Well, I think she would have to have 17 been moving by virtue, as I said, of going backward, 18 because I think that is one slice wound. 19 Q. Okay. And if her children were in the 20 same room and stabbed, you wouldn't expect her to sleep 21 through that either, would you? 22 A. Well, depends. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. It depends on how violent the attack 25 was and it depends on how hard the person sleeps, but Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4589 1 most -- under most circumstances, you would think that 2 they wouldn't sleep through it. 3 Q. Well, if you had information that they 4 were a light sleeper and that they had taken amphetamines 5 that day, and the amphetamines in fact, are in their 6 blood when they were taken to the hospital, you wouldn't 7 think they would sleep through that, would you? 8 A. I would say under most circumstances, 9 right. I think phentermine, not amphetamines. 10 Q. Well, what is that? 11 A. Phentermine is a -- the toxicology 12 report, the only drug present being phentermine, not 13 amphetamines. Phentermine is essentially a weight 14 reducing drug. 15 Q. Okay. It's certainly not something 16 that will put you to sleep though, right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And, if one of your children were 19 about as far from I am to you right now, the one that had 20 all of the stab wounds in the back, Damon, you wouldn't 21 expect her to sleep through that, would you? 22 A. Again, as I said, under most 23 circumstances, no, sir. 24 Q. Okay. And if the other child was 25 about from, about this distance, say about five feet, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4590 1 wouldn't expect her to sleep through that either, would 2 you? 3 A. Under most circumstances, no, sir. 4 Q. Okay. And did you review the wounds 5 that those children received, Dr. DiMaio? 6 A. I looked, again, as I say, I looked at 7 them, I didn't pay that much attention. 8 Q. Those were obviously deep, penetrating 9 wounds to the trunk, were they not? 10 A. Obviously, yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. What do you think happened 12 first, the blunt trauma, or the cut to the neck? 13 A. It would be speculation on my part. I 14 can't answer that. 15 Q. Okay. And would you say, Dr. DiMaio, 16 that the wounds that the children received, the deep, 17 penetrating wounds to their trunk areas, are extremely 18 different from the type of incised wounds that she 19 received? 20 A. Well, by definition, a stab wound and 21 an incised wound are different things. And so the 22 incised wound is inflicted from a swipe with a knife, 23 while stab wounds is with the tip end, yes, sir. 24 Q. You have come across, I think, you 25 have, in one of your books that I have looked at, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4591 1 have a section about children that are killed, homicides? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And, you talk about, I think it's in 4 the miscellaneous section, that sometimes children are 5 killed, they are shot or stabbed or things like that? 6 A. Most killed -- most children are 7 murdered within the first two or three years of life -- 8 usually, within the first two years of life or the first 9 year. 10 Q. Okay. And again -- well, let me make 11 sure I get the quote right. 12 In talking about these miscellaneous 13 deaths where children are stabbed or clubbed or shot, I 14 believe that you write that, "Homicides are committed by 15 sane individuals, for reasons that may or may not be 16 apparent. There are two groups in this category: First 17 are violent deaths, which while no attempt is made to 18 conceal the cause of death, the perpetrator will attempt 19 to make the death appear to be an accident, or due to 20 another individual. Thus, the perpetrator will relate 21 that a child accidentally drowned in the bathtub or fell 22 in a river. There may be claims that a child was 23 kidnapped by a bearded or masked individual." 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. So you have had -- seen situations Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4592 1 where it's a very violent death to a child and the 2 perpetrator might say, well, just try to blame it on 3 someone else? 4 A. Oh, yeah. 5 Q. Okay. I don't know if I caught this 6 right. Did you say people just -- people can commit 7 suicide by cutting their own throat, can't they? You 8 have seen that, haven't you? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And when they do that, they do one 11 long continuous cut, don't they? 12 A. Usually what they do is they will 13 start high up on the side and they will cut down this way 14 and then they will stop about here. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. If they are right-handed, you know. 17 If left-handed, then they will start and they will come 18 down. It will be cut through, it will start up high, 19 below the ear and then cut down this way. 20 Q. Starts up high and then comes down at 21 an angle? 22 A. Yeah, and then loops across the other 23 side. 24 Q. And then all the way across the neck? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4593 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Well, up to a certain point. Usually, 3 they only get here. Because what happens is, once you 4 get to this point, it becomes difficult to angle the 5 knife. 6 Q. Thank you, Doctor. 7 8 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: That's all I have. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder? 10 11 12 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 15 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 16 Q. Doctor, just a thing or two. Are you 17 familiar with amnesia following a traumatic event? 18 19 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge -- 20 THE COURT: Sustain the objection. 21 705 hearing. The doctor has testified as to what the 22 basis of his testimony is going to be. 23 Move on to the next question. 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4594 1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 2 Q. Doctor, there is a Polaroid photograph 3 up there, that was taken by a member, I believe it's 4 Beddingfield of the Rowlett Police Department. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. It has some writing on the back. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Do you see anything in that photograph 9 that is dated, I think at 16:05 on June the 6th of '96, 10 do you see anything to indicate bruising of that 11 particular arm? 12 A. There is a suggestion of some 13 discoloration below this wound over here. 14 Unfortunately, because it's out of 15 focus, you know, it's difficult to say. 16 Q. Okay. It would be somewhat unusual to 17 batter someone in an isolated incident, just on the arms, 18 wouldn't it? 19 A. You mean in defensive? 20 Q. No, just to -- the bruising here? 21 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head 22 affirmatively.) 23 Q. It's likely that this occurred at the 24 same time that the stab wounds were inflicted, is it not? 25 A. Yes, I mean, right, yes. I thought I Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4595 1 had said that. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. All I said was, I couldn't say whether 4 it occurred immediately before or after. There is no way 5 to say. 6 Q. And they have quite a sensitive test 7 now, to determine the presence and absence of blood, even 8 though the instrument has been wiped clean, don't they? 9 A. Right. You can do a test that would 10 identify the blood. You might not be able to type it, 11 but you could say that there was hemoglobin present, or 12 material that tests positive for hemoglobin. 13 Q. One last thing: You have testified 14 before lunch that, in your opinion, those bruises are 15 consistent with Mrs. Routier having been beat violently 16 with a blunt instrument on or about both of her arms. It 17 would not be unlikely to also receive an injury to the 18 head during that beating, would it? 19 A. That's correct, yes, sir. 20 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's 22 all. Thank you. 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4596 1 RECROSS EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 4 Q. But you saw nothing in the medical 5 records that showed any blunt force injury to the head, 6 did you? 7 A. No, not to the face. I mean, that 8 also includes the top and back covered by hair and there 9 is no mention in the records, and, of course, I can't see 10 it on any photographs. 11 Q. And no indication that anywhere in the 12 medical records that she complained about getting her 13 head whacked real hard? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Okay. If you are going to get the 16 blunt trauma to the arm that is going to cause that kind 17 of damage, and you got hit in the head anywhere, it would 18 cause a pretty big knot, wouldn't it? 19 A. It may. I mean, you know, what we're 20 talking about is not a stationary -- it's not like you 21 are hitting a stationary object. You would have to say 22 that -- it's like, what's on one arm that person would be 23 moving trying to avoid it. So, it just depends on how 24 hard the impact is. I wouldn't rule it out, but I mean, 25 I can't say. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4597 1 Q. Well, if a person got hit on the head, 2 as hard as they did on the arm obviously, that is going 3 to cause an injury, is it not? 4 A. Right. If that was the case, right. 5 But I'm saying, I can't, you know I cannot discuss 6 something that I don't know if it was there or not and 7 say how much force was used to produce a wound which may 8 or may not be there. 9 Q. Because you don't have evidence or 10 information that tells you that there was any injury like 11 that? 12 A. That's correct. 13 14 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Okay. That's all we 15 have, Judge. 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: That's all we 17 have. May he be excused? 18 THE COURT: Any objection? All right. 19 Doctor, you are excused subject to 20 recall. You are instructed not to discuss your testimony 21 with anybody. If someone tries to talk to you, tell the 22 attorney for the side who called you. And, of course, 23 you are subject to recall. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4598 1 Your next witness. 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Dr. Lisa Clayton. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, could we 5 approach the bench? 6 7 (Whereupon, a short 8 discussion was held 9 at the side of the 10 bench, between the Court, 11 and the attorneys for 12 both sides in the case, 13 off the record, and outside 14 of the hearing of the 15 Jury, after which time, 16 the proceedings were 17 resumed on the record, 18 outside the hearing of 19 the jury as follows:) 20 21 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and 22 gentlemen, if you will step back to the jury room, 23 briefly, please. 24 25 (Whereupon, the jury Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4599 1 Was excused from the 2 Courtroom, and the 3 Proceedings were held 4 In the presence of the 5 Defendant, with his 6 Attorney, but outside 7 The presence of jury 8 As follows:) 9 10 THE COURT: Let the record reflect 11 that these proceedings are being held outside of the 12 presence of the jury and all parties at the trial are 13 present. 14 Raise your right hand, please, ma'am. 15 16 (Whereupon, the witness 17 Was duly sworn by the 18 Court, to speak the truth, 19 The whole truth and 20 Nothing but the truth, 21 After which, the 22 Proceedings were 23 Resumed as follows: 24 25 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4600 1 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be 2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 3 help you God? 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 THE COURT: Have a seat right here, 6 please. Pull that microphone there. There you go. 7 Okay. And, you have testified before? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: You are under the Rule of 10 Evidence. 11 That simply means -- do you understand 12 what that means? You may not discuss your testimony with 13 anybody, don't compare it with anybody who has testified. 14 You may talk to the attorneys for both sides. 15 If someone tries to talk to you about 16 your testimony, tell the attorney for the side who called 17 you. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: All right. These 20 proceedings are being held outside of the presence of the 21 jury and all parties at the trial are present. This is a 22 Section 705 hearing to determine the basis of this 23 doctor's testimony. 24 So, if you will state your name and 25 spell your name, and Mr. Shook is going to be asking you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4601 1 some very direct questions, and if you will just answer 2 those. And move on and get the jury back in. 3 Go ahead Mr. Shook. 4 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Thank you, Judge. 5 6 7 8 Whereupon, 9 10 DR. LISA CLAYTON, 11 12 was called as a witness, for a hearing outside the 13 presence of the jury, having been first duly sworn by the 14 Court to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 15 but the truth, testified in open court, as follows: 16 17 18 EXAMINATION 19 20 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 21 Q. Dr. Clayton, could you tell the Court 22 your opinions -- 23 24 THE COURT: First of all, state your 25 name, and spell it. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4602 1 THE WITNESS: Lisa, L-I-S-A, initial 2 K, Clayton, C-L-A-Y-T-O-N. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead. 4 5 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 6 Q. Could you please disclose the opinions 7 that you have come to testify on today? 8 A. Well -- 9 10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I think I 11 can probably sum this up a little bit quicker. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: She will testify 14 as to what psychic numbing is. She will testify with 15 respect to traumatic amnesia. 16 She will testify as to the effect of 17 the certain sedatives and pain pills and medication. She 18 will testify -- she is a psychiatrist, Judge. She is an 19 MD, and she will testify as to her training in forensic 20 psychiatry. 21 THE COURT: Well, we will place you as 22 an expert. If you will just sum up what your findings 23 are and what you are going to testify to. 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, if I could 25 go on a little bit more, I can do it. She will testify Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4603 1 as to, Dr. Resnick and Dr. Scott's studies with respect 2 to mothers who kill their children. And she studied 3 under Dr. Resnick and trained under him, and she will 4 testify with respect to the six categories of mothers who 5 kill their children. 6 She will testify that she has examined 7 Darlie Routier, that she has spent, however many hours 8 with her that she spent with her, that she has 9 interviewed not only her, but family members. 10 And then, we will go through each of 11 these categories, and she will render an opinion, and 12 tell why it is or isn't applicable to this particular 13 case. 14 That is basically -- she will testify 15 with respect to grieving, and she will testify as to 16 whether or not she believed that on or about the 3rd day 17 of May of 1996, she believed that the accused was 18 involved in a serious suicidal attempt. 19 THE COURT: Well, anything, Mr. Shook? 20 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Yes, if I could 21 just ask the doctor some questions. 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 24 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 25 Q. So one of your opinions will be about Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4604 1 psychic numbing; is that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. Could you tell us what that is? 4 A. Psychic numbing is a term that is used 5 by psychiatrists and psychologists to describe someone 6 when they have experienced a traumatic event, whether it 7 be some sort of assault, witnessing an assault, rape, 8 witnessing some sort of tragic life threatening kind of 9 event that may not necessarily threaten them, but 10 threaten someone else. 11 And it just describes how some 12 individuals are essentially -- go through kind of a state 13 of, I guess, psychic shock, is also another term for it, 14 where they may be somewhat emotionalist. They may remain 15 kind of somewhat detached from any type of emotion that 16 other people might expect someone to have. 17 There may be periods of emotion and 18 then also periods of, again, detachment. And again, it's 19 a phenomenon that is seen with anybody that -- or with 20 some people, not all people -- but some people that go 21 through any kind of a tragic, shocking kind of 22 witnessing-type event. 23 Q. And, what are the facts or underlying 24 data that you used to form that opinion in this case? 25 A. Various, I guess, psychiatric Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4605 1 textbooks, there's some articles that have been written 2 about psychic numbing, but predominantly, I guess, 3 psychiatric and psychological textbooks. 4 Q. Have -- is any of your opinion based 5 on the interview with the defendant? 6 A. About the psychic numbing? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And then also, is any of that 10 done with -- by interviews with relatives, friends? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were any other tests performed? 13 A. Are you talking about in relation to 14 the psychic numbing? 15 Q. Right. 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Is that all the data then that you 18 relied on in forming your opinion on the psychic numbing? 19 A. No, I also listened to the 911 tape. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And then I also read her written -- 22 Mrs. Routier's written statement to the police. 23 Q. Okay. Then is that all the data then 24 that you used in forming that particular opinion? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4606 1 Q. Okay. Then traumatic amnesia, is that 2 another opinion you will be testifying to? 3 A. Yes. That is something that occurs 4 when, or can occur when an individual, again, experiences 5 some type of traumatic event where they may have kind of 6 no memory for, again, parts of the event. They may have 7 memory of before and then sometime afterwards regain 8 memory. 9 There have been, again, in the 10 literature, psychiatric literature case reports, it's 11 also in psychiatric textbooks that essentially some part 12 of the memory, it's still encoded, but some part of the 13 memory, it's just essentially dissociated from their 14 conscious memory. And, sometimes hypnosis can bring it 15 back, but then sometimes it cannot. 16 Q. And again, what is the underlying 17 facts or data that you used to form that opinion in this 18 case? 19 A. Mrs. Routier's statement. Again, I 20 guess, the 911 tape, the interview, interviews, I spent 21 over 12 hours on different dates talking to Mrs. Routier. 22 The interview with her family, and just various 23 psychiatric textbooks and articles. 24 Q. Okay. And, then, you were going to 25 give an opinion, I believe, on sedatives or the effects Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4607 1 of sedatives? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. What is that? 4 A. It's basically how certain kinds of 5 sedatives that Mrs. Routier had in her system, I guess, 6 at the first interview when she was still in the 7 hospital, of Demerol and Phenergan. 8 And then, also, throughout the -- I 9 guess the time after she came home from the hospital, she 10 was on painkillers, she, -- various family members and 11 friends, because of her, I guess, emotional state, gave 12 her numerous pills, such as Valium and Xanax. 13 These kind of medications serve as 14 disinhibitors, and if anything, it's almost like some 15 sort of a truth serum. 16 There is a famous type of interview 17 that psychiatrists sometimes use called an Amytal 18 interview, and basically they use Amytal which is a 19 fairly short-acting barbiturate drug. And, it kind of 20 relaxes the person's defenses, and they tell the truth. 21 Again, she was not under that 22 medication, but she was under the influence of numerous, 23 similar medications that would serve to disinhibit her, 24 and while she was being interrogated or interviewed about 25 the offenses, it would -- any type of -- usually any type Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4608 1 of disinhibition would be -- she would experience, and 2 most likely it would induce the truth. 3 Q. And, what underlying facts or data 4 have you used to form that opinion? 5 A. Again, her -- all of the ones that I 6 already listed, I guess would be. 7 Q. Her interview as well as the other 8 interviews you talked about? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. And Mr. Mulder said you were 11 going to talk about studies on mothers that kill their 12 children; is that right? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. The six categories. Are you going to 15 render an opinion about that? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. What is that opinion? 18 A. Well, Dr. Resnick has listed or 19 proposed six categories. And my opinion about Dr. 20 Resnick's categories are that Mrs. Routier or Mrs. 21 Routier does not fit in any of those categories. 22 Dr. Scott has five categories and, 23 again, in my opinion about his categories are that she 24 doesn't fit in any of those categories either. 25 Q. Okay. What are those categories? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4609 1 A. Dr. Scott's categories are battering 2 mothers, retaliating mothers, mentally ill mothers, 3 unwanted children, and mercy killings. 4 Dr. Resnick's categories are, 5 altruistic murderers, acutely psychotic murderers, 6 unwanted-child murderers, accidental murderers, 7 spouse-revenge murderers, and then another -- his last 8 category which does not correspond is neonaticide, which 9 is murder of a baby within the first 24 hours of life. 10 Q. And what underlying facts or data did 11 you use to come to that opinion? 12 A. Again, the -- my interviews with 13 Darlie, with her family, again, I guess, the 911 tape, 14 the written statement by her, the various textbooks and 15 articles, and obviously, the articles written 16 specifically about those categories, but then also, other 17 psychiatric textbooks and categories. 18 Q. And what other opinions was it that -- 19 grieving, I believe, is that the other opinion you are 20 going to render? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. What's that opinion? 23 A. That opinion has to do with -- 24 everyone grieves in different ways, and that there is no 25 appropriate type of way of grieving. There may -- you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4610 1 might, if you are going to categorize them, you might, as 2 far as healthy and unhealthy. But people grieve in 3 different ways. 4 I guess I am going to give an opinion 5 about -- that the events at the cemetery, which some 6 people have misinterpreted, was an appropriate form of 7 grieving. Do you want me to go into -- 8 Q. Yes, please, your opinion. 9 A. That it was not planned to be that way 10 by Mrs. Routier, that they had had a prayer service 11 before, which she was crying, her mother had told her 12 that she needed to quit crying so much, that they were 13 going to be -- that the neighborhood kids were going to 14 be there and that it would scare them and upset them, 15 that she tried to essentially put on almost an 16 hysterical-like, kind of happy face. 17 Her sister, her younger sister had 18 bought this Silly String, and then, they had the kind of, 19 essentially, celebration as if the child was still alive 20 for the benefit of neighborhood kids. That it reflects 21 some cultural and biblical context, in that Christians 22 are taught, that if they believe in the Resurrection 23 that, you should celebrate a death because the person is 24 no longer here on earth to suffer, but they are in 25 heaven. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4611 1 That, there are other customs, and the 2 Irish wakes, where people actually party with the 3 deceased body present. And, that there is different 4 cultural standards. 5 And again, grief is not something that 6 is a -- universally applied to everyone in every 7 situation. 8 Q. So your opinion on that, I guess a lot 9 of that came -- the facts on that came with the interview 10 of the defendant? 11 A. Yes, sir. And, then I guess, you 12 know, everything I also listed. I had, I guess, I did 13 review parts, or see parts of the news media tape, and 14 then also my, I guess, biblical and Christian training or 15 knowledge. 16 Q. And, I think the last opinion listed 17 was a suicide attempt on May 3rd? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. What's the opinion on that? 20 A. My opinion is that Mrs. Routier was 21 not imminently suicidal. That it was more of a gesture. 22 She did not make an attempt. She phoned her husband. 23 It was more kind of -- she was just at 24 her wits end at that moment, that her husband immediately 25 came home, he -- things changed, she began -- he began, I Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4612 1 guess, kind of helping around the house more, that she 2 was never actually going to go through with this. 3 It was not a fatal-type attempt. 4 Obviously, there was no attempt. The outcome, obviously, 5 was not fatal. And, that her partial suicide note that 6 was in her, I guess, diary shows her love and compassion 7 for her sons. 8 That her, you know, depression or 9 dysphoria was related probably to not having her period 10 due to the fact that she was breast feeding. That she 11 had stopped breast feeding but still had not had her 12 period. 13 That within three to four days she 14 began her menstrual cycle again, and there was a dramatic 15 change in her mood, and that this was not some chronic 16 type of depression or postpartum psychosis that lasted 17 until the events on the first -- in the first part of 18 June. 19 Q. And, again, what are the underlying 20 facts and data that you rely on for that opinion? 21 A. I guess her suicide note, the diary, 22 my interviews with her. My interviews with the families, 23 family members. And again, I guess her statement, and 24 then various, again, psychiatric textbooks and articles 25 dealing with depression, suicide attempts and postpartum Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4613 1 depression. 2 Q. Okay. 3 4 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: If I could have 5 just one moment, please? 6 THE COURT: Yes. Do you have anything 7 else, Mr. Shook? 8 MR. TOBY SHOOK: No, sir. I believe 9 that is all the opinions; is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 12 Bring the jury in, please. 13 14 (Whereupon, the jury 15 Was returned to the 16 Courtroom, and the 17 Proceedings were 18 Resumed on the record, 19 In open court, in the 20 Presence and hearing 21 Of the defendant, 22 As follows:) 23 24 THE COURT: All right. Let the record 25 reflect that all parties in the trial are present and the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4614 1 jury is seated. 2 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this 3 witness has been sworn outside of your presence. 4 This is Dr. Lisa Clayton. C-L-A-Y-T-O-N. 5 Mr. Mulder. 6 7 8 9 Whereupon, 10 11 12 DR. LISA K. CLAYTON, 13 14 was called as a witness, for the Defense, having been 15 first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth, the 16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in open 17 court, as follows: 18 19 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 22 BY MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: 23 Q. Dr. Clayton, would you tell the jury 24 your name, please? 25 A. Dr. Lisa K. Clayton. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4615 1 Q. And, you are a physician, a medical 2 doctor? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. Will you tell the jury your 5 educational background and experience that qualifies you 6 as a medical doctor? 7 A. Yes, sir, I received my Bachelor's 8 degree in psychology from the University of Oklahoma. I 9 was also a premed -- 10 11 THE COURT: Ma'am, you are going to 12 have to speak a lot louder than that so the last two 13 jurors can hear you. 14 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 15 I received my Bachelor's degrees in 16 psychology from the University of Oklahoma. I was also 17 premed at the time. 18 I applied, and was accepted into 19 medical school. Four years later, I graduated from Emory 20 University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia. 21 During medical school you rotate 22 through your third and fourth years. You rotate through 23 the various specialties of medicine such as OB-GYN, 24 surgery, internal medicine, pediatrics, and psychiatry. 25 It was during these medical school Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4616 1 rotations that I decided that I wanted to specialize in 2 the medical field of psychiatry. 3 After I graduated from medical school, 4 I did a one year general internship at Emory in Atlanta. 5 This consisted of working in neurology, internal medicine 6 and psychiatry. 7 After I completed my internship, I did 8 two years of full time psychiatric residency training at 9 Emory in Atlanta. I then moved to Dallas, Texas, and 10 completed my fourth year of psychiatric residency 11 training at U.T. Southwestern Medical School in Dallas. 12 There is now a sub-specialty in the 13 field of psychiatry, called forensic psychiatry. It's 14 basically how psychiatry interacts with the law in both 15 civil and criminal matters, and also has to do with 16 taking care of and evaluating inmates who have either 17 been accused of a crime, or already convicted of a crime, 18 and are incarcerated, but have some sort of psychiatric 19 disturbance and need medication. 20 I did a one year -- after I did my 21 four years of residency -- internship and residency, I 22 did an extra year called a fellowship. This was a 23 specialization in forensic psychiatry. I did this at 24 U.T. Southwestern. 25 This consisted this year, of working Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4617 1 solely in forensic psychiatry. I worked at the Dallas 2 County jail, I have worked at the federal prison in 3 Seagoville. I have worked under various other forensic 4 psychiatrists. I attended SMU Law School classes. I 5 also went to various conferences and workshops around the 6 country that had specialization courses in various 7 aspects of forensic psychiatry. 8 Since the time that I have completed 9 my forensic fellowship I have been in private practice in 10 the Dallas area. 11 My private practice consists of both, 12 general adult psychiatry and some forensic work. 13 I have an office by Baylor downtown, I 14 am on staff at Baylor and I see both in-patients at 15 Baylor Hospital, and I also see out-patients. 16 I also work at some senior centers at 17 Baylor and see geriatric patients. I work approximately 18 8 to 10 hours a week at the Dallas County jail, where I 19 see inmates who are accused of crimes or have already 20 been convicted, but they need psychiatric medication 21 evaluations or maybe to be put on suicide watch. But I 22 see them solely as a Dallas County psychiatrist. 23 I work one day a week at Corsicana, 24 residential youth treatment center, where I evaluate 25 juveniles who of been committed to TYC, but then have Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4618 1 also been found to have some severe mental disturbance, 2 and they are sent to Corsicana. 3 I -- and also in part of my forensic 4 practice I evaluate criminal defendants, such as Mrs. 5 Routier, and then I also evaluate cases in civil 6 litigations also. 7 I evaluate people for competency, 8 sanity, dangerousness, that sort of thing. And, I also 9 am on the clinical teaching staff at U.T. Southwestern, 10 where I help out in the community oversee residents who 11 are in training, and, I think that is about it. 12 Q. Okay. Very good. 13 A. And, oh, I'm sorry. I'm licensed to 14 practice medicine in both the states of Texas and 15 Georgia. 16 Q. All right. Dr. Clayton, are you 17 frequently called upon to render a psychiatric opinion, 18 an expert opinion in court? 19 A. I guess I would call it frequently, 20 yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Have you testified in court 22 over one hundred times? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you have been qualified as an 25 expert? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4619 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. All right. I'll ask you, Dr. Clayton, 3 approximately how many people have you examined who were 4 charged with criminal offenses? 5 A. Any type of criminal offense? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I'm sure over a thousand. 8 Q. Okay. Can you give the jury some idea 9 as to how many people you have examined who are charged 10 with either murder or capital murder? 11 A. Probably, I guess around seventy-five 12 to a hundred. 13 Q. Okay. Dr. Clayton, is there a 14 difference in examining someone who is charged with a 15 serious criminal offense as opposed to seeing someone who 16 is -- as an out-patient in your office? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay. And what is that difference? 19 A. The difference is, is in an 20 out-patient or office, regular relationship it is a 21 therapeutic relationship. Psychiatrists are essentially 22 taught, in our training to be very accepting and 23 believing of what people tell you, until you find out 24 otherwise. 25 That is the reason that I did the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4620 1 extra year of forensic fellowship training. Because, 2 when you are working in the realm of criminals, you need 3 to be able to assess and confront that what they are 4 telling you, may in fact be not truthful, out and out 5 lies, and that sort of thing. 6 And so, I have received special 7 training in how to, I guess, confront, how to look for 8 people who are lying, are not telling the truth, and that 9 sort of thing. So, it's much more of an aggressive type 10 of evaluation and interview. 11 The, you know, -- I am not trying to 12 treat the person, I am just trying to evaluate and render 13 an unbiased opinion. 14 Q. Okay. Are there techniques, that you 15 as a physician would employ, to determine whether or not 16 the person you are examining is being truthful with you, 17 or whether they are fudging or lying, or being deceitful 18 or otherwise trying to influence the examination and your 19 ultimate evaluation of them? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. Would you tell the jury, just a 22 give them some example of how you do that? 23 A. Well, the best probable technique is 24 time, time, time, and the amount of time you spend with 25 someone, and have it be over different periods, not all Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4621 1 like in one day, but maybe see them and then wait a 2 couple of weeks and then see them again. 3 You have them go over the story, and 4 first you have them talk about something that you know is 5 true, such as their birthdate and where they grew up and 6 that sort of thing. Then you move on, after a period of 7 time, and you observe their body language, their 8 emotional state, their blink rate, their fidgeting, their 9 posture, the tone of their voice, the way they word 10 things, their, I guess descriptions, and just that sort 11 of thing. 12 Then you move on to the topic in 13 question, such as, the crime, the alleged crime. And 14 have you -- have them talk to you about that. 15 Again you observe to see if there is a 16 change in demeanor; and, again, their movements, their 17 voice, their eye contact, their blink rate. 18 A lot of times when people are lying 19 to you they will look you straight in the eye because 20 they have always heard that, you know, you don't -- if 21 you are not looking in the eye, so you look for such 22 things like that, and they will, you know, they will 23 start looking you straight in the eye, instead of kind of 24 the way they have been looking at you before. 25 You also look for the changes in their Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4622 1 voice, motion, the way they relate the story. And then 2 again, you go back and do this over again at a later 3 date. 4 You also are assessing when someone is 5 telling the truth. Most often, anybody relating any kind 6 of story there is slight discrepancies or changes, just 7 because of the way our memory works. So, you are looking 8 for that, versus someone that is telling a rote lie, they 9 tend to be very ridged, the wording is almost exactly the 10 same every single time. 11 So, you look for different kind of 12 nuances, about that In their description. And then 13 again, you do this again, over and over, to -- at 14 different times, if possible, to just assess, you know, 15 whether someone is telling you the truth. 16 Q. Okay. And in the course of your 17 psychiatric practice, are you frequently called upon by 18 prosecutors and defense lawyers, as well as requested by 19 judges, to examine someone and render a professional 20 opinion? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now, Dr. Clayton, are you familiar 23 with the psychiatric studies of Dr. Scott and Dr. 24 Resnick, concerning the categorization by them of women 25 who have killed their children? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4623 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Okay. And, I think one of the 3 physicians divides it into five categories; is that 4 correct? 5 A. Yes, sir, Dr. Scott has the five 6 categories, and then Dr. Resnick, he has -- his 7 categories pretty much coincide with Dr. Scott's, but he 8 added another category, and he has six categories. 9 Q. All right. Both of those physicians 10 are considered to be two of the leading authorities in 11 that field, are they not? 12 A. Yes, sir, they are. 13 Q. Do you personally know Dr. Resnick? 14 A. Yes, sir, I do. I had the luxury or 15 the pleasure of training under him during my forensic 16 fellowship. 17 Q. Okay. All right. Can you tell the 18 jury what those categories are? 19 A. Okay. Doctor -- you just want me to 20 list them out? 21 Q. Yes, if you would please? 22 A. Dr. Scott's categories are battering 23 mothers, retaliating mothers, mentally ill mothers, 24 unwanted children mothers and mercy killing mothers. 25 Dr. Resnick, he categorized them as Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4624 1 altruistic murderers, acutely psychotic murderers, 2 unwanted child murderers, accidental murderers and spouse 3 revenge murderers, and then his last category, which is 4 in addition, is neonaticide, which is the killing of an 5 infant within the first 24 hours of life. 6 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say that we 7 could, I think Dr. Scott calls the first category the 8 battered child -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Or the battering mother? 11 A. Yes, and that kind of coincides with 12 Dr. Resnick's accidental. 13 Q. Okay. Could you explain to the jury 14 just what that is? 15 A. Well, both of them, are pretty much 16 the -- both of the doctors use pretty much the same 17 description. That it is a child who has experienced -- 18 or a mother who has abused the child over a long period 19 of time, and then, actually doesn't mean to kill the 20 child, but just the physical abuse finally does become 21 fatal. 22 And those children show long history 23 of, you know, bruising, broken bones, past injuries, and 24 then finally there is one injury that finally is fatal to 25 the child. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4625 1 Q. Okay. It is just where they have 2 gotten into a routine, and they just -- that last time, 3 they just went too far? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And, many times is that not evident 6 when the pathologist x-rays the child, and can see the 7 broken bones that have mended, and things of that nature 8 that would alert the physician? 9 A. Yes, I mean, it's almost always 10 evident on autopsies that, not only by x-rays but just 11 the physical exam of old bruising, healed wounds and 12 scaring and then the history of the broken bones. 13 Q. Okay. Dr. Scott calls the next 14 category retaliation, or the retaliating mother, and 15 would that correspond to Dr. Resnick's revenge mother? 16 A. Yes, sir, those are the two that 17 correspond. 18 Q. Okay. And, could you acquaint the 19 jury with that category, please? 20 A. This is a category where it's a mother 21 who is usually very angry at the child's father, whether 22 it be her husband or not. 23 Most often the way they talk about it, 24 the mother has been -- is separated, or the father is not 25 living in the home, and it's getting back at the father. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4626 1 The father may be having an affair and 2 still living in the home. But basically the mother kills 3 the child in order to hurt her husband or the baby's 4 father. 5 Q. Okay. Dr. Scott's third category, is 6 what he calls the mentally ill mother, and I think Dr. 7 Resnick calls that the psychotic mother. Can you tell 8 the jury about that category, please? 9 A. Yes, this is a mother who becomes what 10 we call psychotic or grossly mentally ill. In that they 11 are hearing voices, they are delusional, they are 12 paranoid, they usually don't try to hide the fact that 13 they have killed the baby, they may kill a child that 14 they think is of the devil, or, that God has told them to 15 do this. That sort of thing. 16 They are very disorganized, usually 17 before and after the murders, they exhibit psychotic 18 symptoms that are very evident to even, usually, lay 19 people, before and after the murders and they are 20 basically just very crazy and mentally ill and that is 21 what causes them to kill their children. 22 Q. Okay. And they generally confess and 23 justify it in their own minds, don't they? 24 A. Oh, yes, they don't try to hide the 25 murder and they are very open about it usually. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4627 1 Q. Okay. All right. And frequently, 2 the mentally ill and the psychotic category would exhibit 3 symptoms that the lay person could recognize readily? 4 A. Yes. Someone that is psychotic, you 5 don't just suddenly snap and for 10 minutes be acutely 6 psychotic and then snap back. 7 It may be a fairly brief psychosis in 8 that it, you know, might just last a few hours today, but 9 there has been -- usually there are symptoms where they 10 aren't able to keep their house, they may not be able to 11 keep themselves groomed. 12 They start saying weird things to 13 their family and friends. They might start talking about 14 hearing voices, they become paranoid. 15 They might have very rapid, 16 unexplained mood swings, where one minute they are 17 talking normally, and the next minute they are crying 18 hysterically and that is probably in response to the 19 voices and the delusions that they are having. 20 And again, it's not -- you don't just 21 go from being totally normal to 10 minutes or an hour of 22 psychosis. It's something that may be limited, but there 23 is a what we call prodromal, and then residual symptoms 24 before and after. 25 But usually it is much longer. I Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4628 1 would say months to years, in these mothers that they are 2 talking about. 3 Q. It's not something that you could turn 4 on and off like a water faucet? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Okay. How about the unwanted 7 category? 8 A. There again, that is the same, in both 9 of the doctors' classifications, those are usually -- 10 they are usually predominantly teen-age mothers who have 11 children out of wedlock, the majority of the children in 12 this category show signs and actually the majority, 13 pretty much predominantly all of them show signs of 14 neglect, meaning not being fed properly, they may be very 15 thin, they may have vitamin deficiencies, kind of dirty, 16 not being kept clean. 17 In the category of both of these 18 doctors, over 50 percent actually died from the neglect, 19 meaning that that was the cause on the autopsy was 20 malnutrition, that or untreated medical illness that 21 eventually led to their death. 22 So, again, it's not something the way 23 that you categorize it where it's a very sudden thing. 24 It's usually a long prodromal history of a mother 25 exhibiting signs of rejecting the child before the mother Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4629 1 actually kills the child. 2 Q. Okay. And in Dr. Scott's last 3 category, I believe he calls it the mercy category, and 4 Dr. Resnick calls that category -- or his corresponding 5 category would be the altruistic? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Is that correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. So could you explain to the jury that 10 category, please? 11 A. Well, this is the -- well, there is 12 kind of two different types. This is the mother who was 13 suicidal but sees that, you know, the child cannot live 14 without her, or she is afraid that the husband or 15 relatives, or there is no one to take care of the child, 16 and so there is no hope for the child, so, this is the 17 mother that kills her children, and then kills herself. 18 It also is the mother who may have a 19 mentally retarded, terminally ill, chronic illness child, 20 where the mother feels like that the child is "better off 21 dead," and that she needs to kill the child in order to 22 relieve the child's suffering. 23 So those are pretty much the 24 descriptions in that category. 25 Q. All right. That would be the final Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4630 1 category for Dr. Scott, and then I believe that Dr. 2 Resnick had a 6th category, did he not? 3 A. Yes, his was again neonaticide, which 4 is the mother who -- usually it's a mother who has the 5 baby at home, oftentimes the pregnancy has been hidden, 6 and what happens is within the first 24 hours of life, 7 the mother kills the infant. 8 Q. Okay. 9 10 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, 11 Ladies and gentlemen, members of the 12 jury, we're going to take a 15 minute break now. We're 13 going to break until 3:00 o'clock. And, members of the 14 viewing audience, it will be necessary at this time to 15 vacate the courtroom, please. 16 All right. Nothing dangerous, just a 17 housekeeping chore. 18 19 (Whereupon, a short 20 recess was taken, after 21 which time, the 22 proceedings were 23 resumed in open court, 24 in the presence and 25 hearing of the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4631 1 Defendant, being 2 represented by her 3 Attorney, but outside of 4 the presence of the jury 5 as follows:) 6 7 THE COURT: All right, are both sides 8 ready to bring the jury back and resume with Dr. Clayton? 9 MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: Yes, sir, the 10 Defense is ready. 11 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: All right, bring the jury 13 back in, please. 14 15 (Whereupon, the jury 16 was returned to the 17 courtroom, and the 18 proceedings were 19 resumed on the record, 20 in open court, in the 21 presence and hearing 22 of the defendant, 23 as follows:) 24 25 THE COURT: Let the record reflect Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4632 1 that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is 2 seated. 3 Mr. Mulder. 4 5 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 6 Q. Dr. Clayton, you have been called here 7 to testify as regards to Darlie Routier. Do you know 8 her? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Do you see her here in court on my 11 immediate left? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Have you had occasion to examine her? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And has she been made available to you 16 as you required? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Can you tell the jury approximately 19 how many times you have seen her? 20 A. I have seen her for these -- this 21 evaluation approximately five or six times for over a 22 total of over 12 hours, probably about 12 and a half 23 hours total time that I have spoken with her in this type 24 of interview setting. 25 Q. Is that relatively long or is it Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4633 1 longer than you usually take to examine and evaluate 2 someone? 3 A. Yes, usually most evaluations are done 4 within an hour to two-hour period. On some other 5 previous capital cases, I have talked with the defendant 6 up to about four hours and usually it's between two to 7 three different times. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. But yes, I have spent more time. 10 Q. Okay. And, have you likewise been 11 given access to, for example, the 911 tape? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Okay. Have you had access to, and do 14 you have a copy of the statement that she made to the 15 police on June the 8th of 1996? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I'll ask you if you likewise have a 18 copy of the journal that contains a final entry on May 19 the 3rd of 1996 addressed to her three sons? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. That is the statement in which 22 she mentions ending it all or -- 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Or the so-called suicide note? 25 A. Yes. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4634 1 Q. Have you also had occasion to visit 2 with family members of Darlie Routier's? 3 A. Yes, sir, I have. 4 Q. Now, Dr. Clayton, could you start with 5 the first category that we discussed, and tell the jury, 6 based on your examination and evaluation of Darlie 7 Routier, whether or not she fits in the first category 8 that we talked about that Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick 9 defined on mothers who kill their children? 10 A. Yes, the first category would be 11 battering mothers, and under Dr. Resnick's classification 12 accidental deaths, again, those are mothers who have 13 physically abused their children for a long time, and 14 then finally one incident of physical abuse, is fatal. 15 Based upon my interviews with Mrs. 16 Routier and her family members, and I guess all of the 17 other things you mentioned, there is no history of any 18 type of physical abuse. 19 There was no history of any type of 20 physical abuse found on autopsy, in fact, it's been 21 reported by not only Mrs. Routier, but her husband, her 22 mother-in-law, and her mother is -- 23 24 MR. TOBY SHOOK:: Judge, I'll object 25 to hearsay. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4635 1 THE COURT: Sustained, ma'am. Now, 2 Doctor, just testify as to what you know from your own 3 personal knowledge. 4 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, in 5 forming her opinion, she can consider all that. 6 THE COURT: Oh, by all means there. 7 Let's just rephrase your question the right way. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, you are 9 doing fine, Doctor. If you will just carry on. 10 THE WITNESS: That Mrs. -- well, it's 11 my opinion, from those sources, that Mrs. Routier did not 12 even physically spank her children, on a regular basis, 13 maybe once or twice in their whole entire lives and that 14 she never used any kind of physical force, to any kind of 15 excess at all with her children in the history. 16 Q. Okay. So she doesn't fit in the 17 category 1 of Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick's categories? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. How about category 2, the 20 retaliating mother or the revengeful mother? 21 A. Well, again, those are usually mothers 22 who are separated from their spouse, or find out their 23 husband or the baby's father is being in some way 24 unfaithful to them, and kills the children out of 25 revenge. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4636 1 Again, it's my opinion, from all of my 2 different interviews that Mrs. Routier and -- or Darlie 3 and Darin Routier had a very healthy, strong, marriage; 4 that they were very much in love with each other; that 5 they had what I would consider a normal relationship, in 6 that times they did argue, and maybe raised their voices, 7 there is -- over different matters however, there again, 8 there was a strong bond, and love between them. And that 9 there was, and I guess still is, no reason for any type 10 of retaliation or revenge-type killing. 11 Q. Dr. Clayton, Dr. Scott and Dr. 12 Resnick's third category, I would like to have you 13 discuss with the jury, is the -- under Dr. Scott the 14 mentally ill mother, and under Dr. Resnick the psychotic 15 mother. Would you explain to the jury whether or not 16 that is applicable based on your examination and your 17 evaluation of Darlie Routier? 18 A. Again, I do not think it is 19 applicable. It's my opinion that Mrs. Routier was very 20 much functional. She was performing regular household 21 chores, she was not saying any bizarre statements, or 22 showing any type of bizarre behavior. There was no 23 evidence that she had any type of psychosis prior to the 24 alleged offense. 25 And then, from hearing the 911 tape Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4637 1 again, that she is, I guess, performing -- or not 2 performing, she is reacting in a very appropriate manner. 3 You know, the distress, she is coherent, she is not 4 talking about, you know, the devil or evil, or some sort 5 of bizarre, psychotic delusion, that you would expect 6 from a mother who had just killed their children in a 7 psychotic state. 8 And then, even after the events she 9 was examined by other psychiatrists at the jail, and then 10 also by me, when I was functioning in my jail psychiatry 11 role, a few days after the arrest, and there has never 12 been any thought by any of these psychiatrists that she 13 had any evidence of any type of psychosis. 14 So, I do not think that she fits into 15 that category. 16 Q. Okay. And that would really be 17 covered by the postpartum psychosis? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What exactly is take, and what are 20 those -- I take it those are degrees? 21 A. Yes, they kind of -- they have 22 actually, depending on the textbook that you read, they 23 usually are divided into about three categories. One is 24 postpartum blues. 25 Q. Is that also called baby blues? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4638 1 A. Yes. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head 2 affirmatively.) 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And again, this usually happens within 5 two or three days after delivery, up until like about 6 three weeks, feeling just kind of down. Again, usually 7 these -- any type of postpartum problems usually happen 8 with the first baby more than any other pregnancy. 9 But again, it's usually somewhat -- 10 it's very close to the time of the delivery. It is more 11 of just kind of a period of dysphoria, that usually, you 12 know, resolves without any kind of treatment or anything. 13 They just start feeling better. 14 Q. Just kind of moody? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And for no reason? 17 A. Yes, but again, that is usually 18 within -- usually within the first month of the new 19 infant's birth. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And then the second category is 22 postpartum depression with major depression. Again, this 23 is kind of when the blues linger on, and they become what 24 we psychiatrists would call majorly depressed, meaning 25 that their sleep is disrupted, even if the baby is not Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4639 1 disrupting their sleep, again it's usually very 2 noticeable to family and friends. 3 Again, this usually happens -- most of 4 these happen within the first three months of the birth 5 of the baby. Then again, oftentimes, it resolves by 6 itself. Some people -- some women do seek psychiatric 7 help, and get put on some type of antidepressant 8 medication. 9 The third category is the postpartum 10 psychosis, where over a period of time, lasting up to one 11 year, the mother can become frankly psychotic. Usually 12 she progresses through the first two stages I told you 13 about, and then she starts becoming paranoid that, you 14 know, something is going to happen to the baby, or 15 somebody is going to hurt her, or she starts hearing 16 voices, she starts acting very bizarre. 17 Usually families report that she quits 18 caring for herself or the baby, housework doesn't get 19 done. Just regular, basic personal hygiene is totally 20 neglected, and these mothers, usually because there is an 21 infant in the home, and the family needs the mom there to 22 take care of the infant, but they usually come to the 23 attention of mental health people very quickly, because 24 of the high demands of caring for an infant, that if the 25 mother is not able to do so in the appropriate way, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4640 1 family usually bring the mother in, and she receives 2 psychiatric treatment. And that usually does require 3 medication for it to resolve. 4 Q. Dr. Clayton, in the case of postpartum 5 psychosis, in postpartum psychosis, that is severe 6 enough, that it results in violence towards a child, is 7 not the child generally to whom and against whom the 8 violence is directed is the newborn? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is that not practically always true? 11 A. Yes, that is, in I would say probably 12 from 90 to 95 percent of the time, is that it's focused 13 around the infant that has just been birthed by the 14 mother. 15 Q. All right. Doctor, the fourth 16 category would be the unwanted child category, it's the 17 same in both Dr. Scott and Dr. Resnick's research? 18 A. Yes, sir. This is the category that 19 is the majority are unwanted-type pregnancies, wherein 20 the mother is usually teen-aged, there is no social 21 support, there -- from anybody. They may resent the 22 child that -- or the children, and sometimes they are of 23 another -- by another father that -- or they have got a 24 boyfriend who doesn't want children and that sort of 25 thing. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4641 1 Again, a majority of these children 2 are killed by actual neglect. Meaning that they are not 3 properly fed, they don't -- you know, they may be vitamin 4 deficient on autopsy and that they are actually on 5 autopsy, the reason they have been found to be dead is 6 because of either malnutrition or untreated medical 7 illnesses that the mother has just ignored. So, that is 8 how the majority of these children die. 9 The other ones that may not die 10 actually from the actual neglect do show symptoms of -- 11 or evidence of neglect, such as unkept, dirty, not -- 12 again the not being fed properly, that sort of thing. 13 So again, this is a very long -- I 14 guess or somewhat long process, in that the mother has 15 not wanted the child, and essentially has rejected the 16 child over a long period of time, and then culminates in 17 murdering the children or the child. 18 Q. And do you think that is applicable in 19 this situation? 20 A. No. Again it's my medical opinion, 21 from my evaluation, that Darlie Routier was a very 22 devoted mother, she went the extra mile as far as her 23 devotion to her children. She had a great amount of 24 social support. Support for her when she needed, I 25 guess, breaks from the children and that sort of thing. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4642 1 That, again, there is -- my opinion is 2 that there was no lover, or any reason why she needed to 3 rid herself of the two younger children. 4 Again, usually those type of murders 5 are -- you don't just, I guess, murder one of the 6 children, or some of them, it's usually the hole group of 7 children if the mother wants to be childless. 8 Or in the few situations, I guess, 9 where a child has been born by one father, and the mother 10 might kill the children that have been born by the father 11 who she is no longer with, and just want to keep the baby 12 by her newer husband or newer father. 13 So, it's my opinion that she does not 14 fit in that category either. 15 Q. Okay. Doctor, the fifth and last 16 category for Dr. Scott, would be the mercy killing that 17 is the one that correlates to the altruistic for Dr. 18 Resnick, could you tell the jury, based on your 19 examination and evaluation of Darlie Routier, whether or 20 not you feel that is applicable to her situation? 21 A. Well, obviously neither one of the two 22 children had any type of fatal or significant, 23 long-standing chronic illness, where she would have felt 24 that she needed to relieve their pain or suffering. 25 I do not think at the time, that she Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4643 1 was suicidal. I think even when she contemplated or 2 thought about committing suicide, in May, that the note 3 showed -- that she wrote, or part of the note because she 4 stopped before she finished it. It showed a concern and 5 love for her boys, and a plan that she -- the boys were 6 going to be taken care of and would live on without her. 7 There was no evidence that she felt like they could not 8 survive without her, and there would be no one to care of 9 them, and that sort of thing. But all in all, I don't 10 think that she was suicidal at the time of the offense, 11 and I don't think that she killed the two boys and then 12 was trying to kill herself. 13 In the event where a mother kills her 14 children and then kills herself, it's very rare, 15 especially for women, to stab themselves as a method of 16 suicide. It's more likely some sort of asphyxiation, 17 even such as putting all of the kids in the car, and 18 putting them in the garage, and, you know, having carbon 19 monoxide kill everyone of them, including the mother, or 20 some type of gassing again in the home, or some type of 21 overdose, and if there is going to be a violent death, 22 it's usually a gun used. 23 But women, very rarely, kill 24 themselves with a knife. In fact, most -- in the 25 American culture, it's very rare, I guess, maybe common Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4644 1 with Japanese soldiers, but it's very rare for a woman to 2 try to kill herself with a knife. 3 Q. Okay. Doctor, that -- we have gone 4 through Dr. Scott's categories, and Dr. Resnick has one 5 more category, and that is the -- 6 A. Neonaticide. 7 Q. Yes, neonaticide. And, can you tell 8 us whether or not that is applicable to this situation? 9 A. Well, obviously it's not, because, she 10 did not -- again that is the category that Dr. Resnick 11 described, in that mothers who kill their infant within 12 24 hours of being born. 13 So obviously, by the fact that the 14 offense that the baby that she had was not harmed, and 15 was much older than -- all of the children were much 16 older than 24 hours old. 17 Q. Okay. Dr. Clayton, based on your 12 18 plus hours of examination and evaluation of Darlie 19 Routier, and based on your examination and evaluation of 20 her family members, and the review of the matters that 21 you have received, do you feel that Darlie Routier was 22 being truthful with you when you examined her? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Clayton, you are 25 aware that Darlie Routier was questioned by the Rowlett Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4645 1 Police Department on June 6th of 1996, shortly after she 2 came out of surgery for the injuries that she had 3 sustained? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And had been given, as I recall, some 6 Demerol and some Phenergan? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. She was questioned on other occasions 9 again, on June 8th of 1996, and again on June 10th of 10 1996, while she was under sedation and under medication. 11 Can you, as a psychiatrist, tell the 12 jury what effect that medication and sedation and the 13 medications that I have described to you would have on 14 her? 15 A. Yes, those medications, the Demerol to 16 Phenergan then later on the other painkillers, and, 17 benzodiazepine, or sedatives that she was being given, 18 over that time period, have the effect on a person to 19 disinhibit them, much like, somewhat like alcohol. 20 Meaning that they are almost in some 21 cases like a truth serum. There is a fairly famous 22 psychiatric-type interview, called an Amytal interview, 23 where a person is actually given a medication, an IV, 24 that is very short acting, a barbiturate, and, they are 25 asked questions and it is found that people that are Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4646 1 lying, their inhibitions are dropped and they tell the 2 truth. 3 So, if someone is making up something, 4 they are -- because they are essentially somewhat 5 intoxicated by the medication, their ability to lie is 6 decreased and they more often tell the truth. 7 By the fact that Mrs. Routier was on 8 these medications over this time period, and was 9 questioned extensively, if she were lying, it would be, 10 usually at that point, under those conditions, where she 11 would -- where the truth would come out. Meaning that, 12 if she had done this she would have confessed, that sort 13 of thing. By the fact that she was on these medications 14 and did not change her story within any amount of, you 15 know, I did it, versus I didn't, it's my medical opinion 16 that she was being truthful. 17 Q. When she denied it? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. A good police strategy is to 20 question someone when they come out of surgery, isn't it? 21 A. Yes, or when they are under some type 22 of sedating-type medication, yes. 23 Q. Okay. Doctor, can you tell the jury 24 whether or not you are familiar with the term psychic 25 numbing? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4647 1 A. Yes, I am. 2 Q. All right. And will you tell the jury 3 what that is? 4 A. Well, it's a term that has been coined 5 by some psychiatrists, also it's called -- there is a 6 thing or another phrase call psychic shock, and it's used 7 to describe someone's emotional lessness or their 8 decrease in emotional reactivity when they have witnessed 9 some sort of traumatic, tragic event. 10 Either whether they have been 11 assaulted or attacked, or they have witnessed something. 12 There is -- essentially their body may not be in shock, 13 but their emotional reactivity is somewhat decreased. It 14 may fluctuate, meaning that they may kind of go in and 15 out. 16 With different people it's different, 17 but it's something that is recorded in the literature and 18 part of any kind of traumatic stress that people again 19 may, to others seem very cold and not really having any 20 emotions over it, whereas what is probably happened is 21 because of the trauma, on -- to use the psychiatric term, 22 ego, their mind has kind of blocked it off and separated 23 it out, that the emotions from the event. And at times 24 they can appear very emotionless and essentially just be 25 in a shock kind of state. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4648 1 Q. Okay. Doctor -- Dr. Clayton, are you 2 familiar with the grieving process that went on with 3 Darlie Routier, and with grieving in general? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. And, can you express to the 6 jury whether or not you feel her grieving was appropriate 7 or inappropriate given the circumstances? 8 A. I feel like her grieving was 9 appropriate. 10 Q. Okay. Do people grieve in different 11 ways? 12 A. Yes, sir, grieving is a very 13 individual response. I guess I wouldn't -- if I were 14 going to label grieving I wouldn't label grieving either 15 appropriate or inappropriate, because who is to say? 16 Every one is different. We all handle things in 17 different ways. 18 If I were going to categorize it, I 19 would categorize it to healthy and unhealthy grieving. 20 Some people are very stoic and don't elicit a lot of 21 emotion, and more private people, sometimes that is 22 cultural, sometimes it's individual. 23 Other people are more, I guess loud, 24 wailing and sobbing, you know, kind of throw their body 25 over the caskets and that type of grieving. And again, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4649 1 it's somewhat of an individual and somewhat of a cultural 2 response. 3 Some people, kind of, I guess what I 4 would call wax and wane, meaning that at some points they 5 are very in touch with grieving and emotion, and at other 6 points they aren't. Again, I think some of that has to 7 do with medication, when -- you know, when someone is 8 very, very upset, the family and friends respond, and 9 again, it's my opinion that this is what happened in 10 Darlie's case, is to give her medication to sedate her. 11 Some that wasn't prescribed for her, and probably was 12 given in too strong of doses, where it can almost make 13 someone zombie-ish (sic) like because they are so 14 sedated. 15 Again, I think from my evaluation that 16 Mrs. Routier's grieving was within normal grieving and 17 appropriate. 18 Q. So it was healthy? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. Dr. Clayton, are you familiar 21 with the term traumatic amnesia? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And what is that, and how does that 24 apply based on your examination and evaluation of Darlie 25 Routier? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4650 1 A. Again, that is a term that is used in 2 various psychiatric textbooks. To describe when someone 3 is a victim or witnesses something very traumatic. I 4 guess, psychicly, and for the most part they have no 5 memory of the event. 6 I guess in literature there is 7 several -- you know, someone being shot at point blank 8 range, and not remembering what happened right before, or 9 someone being raped, and basically having no memory of 10 it. It is basically a type of disassociation where the 11 person walls off the memory in another spot in their 12 brain and has no connection. 13 Again, there is -- at times, sometimes 14 these memories can later resurface. Again, these are 15 kind of -- a lot of times you are seeing this with the 16 sexual abuse kind of stuff. People literally don't 17 remember things, and then later on, bits and pieces kind 18 of come back. 19 I believe that this is probably the 20 case in Mrs. Routier's accounting of the events. 21 And, lack of, I guess, consistent 22 memory throughout the whole offense. 23 Again, it's -- I wouldn't say, I guess 24 it's not common, because most people don't go through 25 hopefully those kind of traumatic events that these other Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4651 1 individuals have, but within victims of traumatic events, 2 there are most definitely memory lapses that there is no 3 real explanation for. 4 Q. And that is not unusual? 5 A. No, not with victims of traumatic 6 events. 7 Q. Dr. Clayton, I believe you have 8 already stated that you did not think that Darlie Routier 9 was suicidal on May the 3rd of 1996, despite any entry in 10 her journal? 11 A. Yes. I guess when I say suicidal, and 12 when I am dealing with it with people and patients, 13 meaning everyone, I think, or most people have thought of 14 what would it be like to just have it all over, or I 15 would like to go to sleep and not wake up, and just be 16 away from here. 17 I think that is very different, and I 18 don't consider that suicidal versus someone who has a 19 plan, is going to -- they, are for sure going to act on 20 it, and they usually do not tell family members. They 21 are secretive because they want their plans to be 22 successful. From my evaluation of Mrs. Routier, it's my 23 opinion that she had suicidal ideation. 24 I think it was more of a cry for attention 25 and help from her husband. She did not complete the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4652 1 note. She called her husband and told him how bad she 2 was feeling. Again, these are not the acts of someone 3 who was really going to kill themselves. It's more of 4 someone, I want you to realize how bad I am feeling and 5 how I need some help. 6 I think that was the case in -- with 7 Mrs. Routier on May the 3rd. 8 Q. And I believe you said in three or 9 four days, she had the menstrual cycle and things perked 10 up? 11 A. Yes. And again, I think hormonally 12 she was very vulnerable to feeling kind of anxious and 13 dysphoric, and that she would have been classified as 14 P.M.S. And then also, the fact that she had not had a 15 menstrual cycle, since over a year, she had not had one 16 since the birth of her baby. 17 So, by the accounts that she -- once 18 she had, you know, her period, that she felt much better, 19 and I also think that not only that, but just the fact 20 that her husband acknowledged that she was having stress, 21 and responded appropriately, and came home and the 22 situation was remedied. 23 Q. Well, three boys could be a stressful 24 situation for any mother, couldn't it? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4653 1 Q. And that is not unusual, is it? 2 A. No, sir. I think that most mothers 3 and especially mothers that stay at home with their 4 children, either full time or most of the time, every now 5 and then, you know, tell their husbands or, you know, 6 other family members -- 7 Q. "I need a break." 8 A. "I need a break. Help me out." And I 9 think that is very common. People just may do it in 10 different ways. 11 Q. Sure. Dr. Clayton, are you familiar 12 with the prayer service at the cemetery, and the birthday 13 party or celebration that followed that? Are you 14 familiar with that? 15 A. Yes, sir, I am. 16 Q. Okay. And, could you give us your 17 professional opinion as to whether or not that was 18 appropriate based on your examination and evaluation of 19 Darlie Routier? 20 A. Well, again, I don't think that I can 21 necessarily say what is appropriate or inappropriate with 22 any family that is grieving over someone that has died. 23 I think it is in the realm of normal grieving, and thus 24 in that way, I guess it would be appropriate, in that 25 there was a prayer service. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4654 1 Mrs. -- Darlie was tearful, her mother 2 essentially told her that she needed to stop crying 3 because of the birthday party and the neighborhood 4 children being present after the prayer service and that 5 the children were already fearful and having nightmares. 6 And that this was to be a celebration, it was to reassure 7 the children that the little boys were with God, and in 8 Christian cultures, Christianity, in and of itself, talks 9 about the resurrection, and how someone is better off, 10 once they are dead, in that they are with the Lord, and 11 that they are no longer here on the earth. And the 12 Routiers were of the Christian faith, and I think they 13 were trying to, I guess, portray this to the other 14 children. And also, that it was not planned, the party, 15 or the way it was -- the Silly String and the party was 16 not planned by Mrs. Routier, it was her younger sister 17 who bought the Silly String and wanted to kind of -- 18 basically, I think the family in some ways were acting in 19 kind of hysterical, almost a pathetic way in acting like 20 the two children were not dead. And trying to almost, I 21 guess, deny the fact that they were dead, in a way, and I 22 think especially what her younger sisters were trying to 23 do was that. 24 Again, different cultures have, you 25 know, grief or have funerals in different ways. What Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4655 1 comes to mind is the wakes, or the Irish-Catholic type 2 wakes, where people actually have parties, and are 3 drinking and partying around the body of someone in a 4 casket. 5 And so, I think different cultures and 6 different people grieve in different ways, and personally 7 I don't feel like any -- no one can say what is 8 appropriate or not appropriate for a family grieving over 9 someone. 10 Q. Okay. 11 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Thank you. Dr. 13 Clayton. One of the prosecutors will have some questions 14 for you. 15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shook. 16 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Thank you, Judge. 17 18 19 CROSS EXAMINATION 20 21 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 22 Q. Dr. Clayton, I believe the first time 23 you met Mrs. Routier was part of your regular duties, in 24 the Dallas County jail, when you see people that have 25 been put in isolation; is that right? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4656 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Okay. And, the time you saw her I 3 believe was back on June the 20th of 1996? 4 A. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't have those 5 notes, but, I think you do. 6 Q. Okay. I think I have got a copy of 7 them here. 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And I know we have gone over those 11 notes, and yes, I would say that is the date. It was 12 just a few days after her arrest at some point. 13 Q. Okay. 14 15 BY MR. TOBY SHOOK: Mark this, please. 16 17 (Whereupon the next exhibit was 18 marked for identification as 19 State's Exhibit No. 145.) 20 21 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 22 Q. Dr. Clayton, let me show you some 23 copies, I believe, of the Dallas County Medical Records, 24 marked as State's Exhibit No. 145, and if you could look 25 through those and see if you recognize those as being Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4657 1 records kept by the jail in regards to Darlie Routier? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And I believe some of your notations 4 will be in there, is that right? 5 A. Yes, it looks like the first one was 6 on 6-20-96. 7 Q. Okay. Let me see it just a second. 8 I'll give it back to you in a minute. 9 10 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Your Honor, at 11 this time we will offer State's Exhibit 145. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, I 14 don't think she is the person who can sponsor some Dallas 15 County jail medical record. 16 THE COURT: Well, she said -- 17 18 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 19 Q. You recognize those, don't you, Dr. 20 Clayton? 21 A. Well, I mean, I don't know if that is 22 the full one. I can recognize my writings on that. 23 24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. Okay. 25 I am not finished with it, but -- Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4658 1 THE COURT: Any objection? 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, I 3 don't know. I have not read it. I would like to see it 4 first, if the Court doesn't mind. 5 THE COURT: All right. Well, let Mr. 6 Mulder read it. 7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, this is a 8 20 page deal that has many entries in different 9 handwritings. 10 THE COURT: Well, I think this is the 11 one that the Doctor said she reviewed; is that correct? 12 You reviewed this document; is that correct? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know 14 specifically if that is the one. 15 THE COURT: Well, perhaps you might 16 want to look at it and see if that is the one that you 17 reviewed. 18 Mr. Shook, hand it to her. 19 THE WITNESS: But I have reviewed her 20 medical records. They are actually in the jail medical 21 record file, they are on blue paper. 22 THE COURT: I understand, I think that 23 would be -- 24 THE WITNESS: And they are the 25 physicians notes. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4659 1 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shook. 2 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Do you want me to 3 show it to her? 4 THE COURT: Just show it to her again. 5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, we want to 6 see it again. 7 THE COURT: Oh, by all means. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, I 9 just hate to sit here for 20 minutes just to read this 10 thing. 11 THE COURT: Well, you know, I have 12 nothing better to do. I might as well sit here. 13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. 14 THE COURT: I am very comfortable, and 15 I don't mind waiting. 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, it's fine 17 with me, if it's all right with you. 18 THE COURT: All right. Very fine. 19 THE WITNESS: Do you want me -- 20 I haven't specifically -- there are 21 some notes in here that wouldn't have been on the blue 22 paper, they would have been on another color paper 23 because they are not on the physicians. 24 THE COURT: But you recognize that as 25 a document that you have reviewed? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4660 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I have not 2 reviewed the ones that are not on the blue paper, but the 3 ones -- I did recognize my writing. 4 THE COURT: All right. That is fine. 5 Anything else? Any objection now? 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, Judge. I 7 would still like to read it, if the Court wouldn't mind. 8 THE COURT: All right. Well, let Mr. 9 Mulder continue to perusing the documents. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, let me just be 11 sure that they have pretty much gotten all my notes. 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, that 13 happens to be a number of different people's handwriting 14 on there. 15 THE COURT: I understand that. Thank 16 you. All right. 17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: And, may I just 18 take the witness on voir dire and ask her something? 19 THE COURT: You may. 20 21 22 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 23 24 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 25 Q. Did you consider what is on these -- Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4661 1 what is contained in these records in forming your 2 evaluation and opinions? 3 A. No, we didn't discuss any -- I was 4 seeing her under the guise of being the jail 5 psychiatrist. At that point I was -- I see -- the way it 6 works in the Dallas County jail is I see the women that 7 are in the north tower. I see the women that are on 8 suicide, specifically because of the clothing issues they 9 are on paper drapes and that sort of thing. 10 So, I was seeing her because when 11 someone is in a high profile case they are automatically 12 placed on suicide precautions. And I was not there, I 13 guess, the first day she was arrested, but then I was -- 14 and two other male psychiatrists saw her, I guess, in 15 some sort of hold-over cell or something, and then once 16 she was transferred I saw her. 17 And it's rules by the sergeant that 18 women that are housed in a single cell in the Dallas 19 County jail be seen by the psychiatrist every two weeks, 20 every one to two weeks. And so, I was, at that point 21 just basically checking in with her. I guess obviously, 22 my notes talk about how she didn't appear psychotic and 23 the other psychiatrist thought she was not psychotic, so 24 I guess in some sense, I did possibly use -- not those 25 notes, but just some of my first impressions. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4662 1 But for the most part, I mean, in all 2 I did not interview her anything about her childhood, or 3 her -- the events or anything. It's basically a here and 4 now, how are you doing, I talk to these inmates about 30 5 seconds to a minute. Because, we go along and they open 6 up their little door, their feeder port, and I talk to 7 them through the door with the jailer right there. So, 8 it's basically just: How are you doing? Are you 9 sleeping? Are you suicidal? 10 Again, about a minute interview 11 because I am writing the whole time, and then I move on 12 to the next one, and that was all that those assessments 13 consisted of. 14 Q. Okay. But it is the policy of the 15 Sheriff's office, the policy of Sheriff Bowles of Dallas 16 County to put someone who comes in in a high profile case 17 on a suicide watch? 18 A. Yes, sir, that is usually what 19 happens. 20 Q. It doesn't make any difference whether 21 it is a man or a woman. 22 23 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, are we going 24 back to direct, or -- 25 THE COURT: Well, let's authenticate Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4663 1 Exhibit 145. I believe the witness has stated that -- 2 Dr. Clayton has said that she did review some pages in 3 there, and her signature or notes appear thereon; is that 4 correct, Doctor? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's 6 correct. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, I 9 obviously had -- I don't have any objections to any 10 entries that she has made. 11 THE COURT: Well, fine. Then State's 12 Exhibit 145, the entries made by this witness are 13 admitted. We will excise the other portions that she 14 cannot recognize. 15 16 (Whereupon, the above 17 mentioned item was 18 received in evidence 19 as State's Exhibit No. 145, 20 for all purposes 21 after which time, 22 the proceedings were 23 resumed on the record, 24 as follows:) 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4664 1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well -- or that 2 she did not author. 3 THE COURT: Did not author, that's 4 correct. I think that the pages that her notes appear 5 on, they are in. The rest of it is out until it's 6 authenticated. Thank you. Let's excise those pages and 7 get on with the trial. 8 And since that document will 9 eventually be excised. You will question Dr. Clayton 10 only on those portions of that exhibit that she has 11 personally reviewed, and I believe your signature or some 12 note of recognition appears on them. Okay? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 16 17 CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed) 18 19 BY MR. TOBY SHOOK: 20 Q. Okay. Thank you. So the first time 21 you saw the defendant would be on the 20th of June of 22 '96; is that right, Doctor? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Okay. And that was part of your -- 25 part of your duties as part of your employment with the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4665 1 Dallas County jail system; is that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. And, when was it that you 4 became hired as an expert in this case for the defense? 5 A. I think I was contacted sometime 6 around the first of November. 7 Q. Okay. Who contacted you? 8 A. Mr. Mulder's paralegal, Carol. 9 Q. Okay. And, did they -- what were you 10 asked to do at that time? 11 A. I was asked to do a psychiatric 12 evaluation on Mrs. Routier. 13 Q. Okay. Any particular type of 14 psychiatric evaluation? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. I mean, were any goals told to 17 look for this, or look for that, and that kind of thing? 18 A. No, he just -- Carol just said that 19 they wanted to hire me to do a psychiatric evaluation. 20 Then I -- and I would have to look at my notes at what 21 day, but I flew down to Kerrville, and when I met Mr. 22 Mulder for the first time, he asked me just to go in and 23 interview her, and that was basically all he said, and 24 that was on 11-15-96. 25 Q. How long was that interview? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4666 1 A. That interview was two and a half 2 hours. 3 Q. Okay. Who was present during that 4 interview? 5 A. Just Darlie and I. 6 Q. Was Mr. Mulder ever in there in the 7 interview? 8 A. No, it's my -- I don't, when I do a 9 psychiatric evaluation of someone, in either a criminal 10 or a civil matter, I just want the person and me in the 11 room. 12 I did, essentially, tell her about her 13 rights and told her that I would tell the truth about 14 what happened in our interview. 15 Q. Okay. Now, so you have interviewed 16 her for a total of 12 hours; is that right? 17 A. Well, actually I think 12 and a fourth 18 to 12 and a half. 19 Q. Okay. And you reviewed the 911 tape? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And, her voluntary statement, I 22 believe; is that right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Okay. What other materials have you 25 reviewed? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4667 1 A. The diary. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Which included the partially finished 4 note -- 5 Q. Right. 6 A. The suicide note. 7 Q. Right. 8 A. That is all. 9 Q. Okay. Have you reviewed any video 10 tapes? 11 A. Not specifically. When -- I guess 12 when the video tape of the -- 13 Q. Of the Silly String party? 14 A. Yes, I caught part of that just in 15 watching the nightly news. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I didn't even see all of that. 18 Q. Okay. So you have only -- the only 19 part of the Silly String tape you have seen, is what part 20 of it that might have been shown on T.V.? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. And, you have interviewed some 23 people besides Darlie; is that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Who was that? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4668 1 A. I interviewed her mother-in-law, Mrs. 2 Routier, for about an hour and a half. I interviewed her 3 mother, Mrs. Darlie Kee, for approximately three hours. 4 I interviewed her husband, Darin, for approximately three 5 and a half hours. 6 Q. Okay. Is that all of the people you 7 have interviewed? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Any friends, have you interviewed any 10 friends? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. But that is the sum total of 13 people you have interviewed in coming here? 14 A. Yes. I was told by Mr. Mulder and the 15 Routier family, that they would make anybody and anything 16 I wanted available, or any other things, and I did not 17 feel like, after talking to all of the above people I 18 have already talked about, I didn't feel like I needed to 19 talk to more friends and family members. 20 Q. Okay. Now your opinions, I guess, 21 that you have given here today, well, I guess like you 22 would at any time, are only as good as the accuracy of 23 the information you are given; is that right? 24 A. Well, I guess -- no, in that, I guess 25 somewhat in part, but also if someone is sitting there Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4669 1 lying to me, and I get my opinion from what I see, and 2 observe and hear, whether they are being truthful or not. 3 So in that sense, someone I can have 4 an opinion that is not -- it's based on whether -- what 5 the person is telling me is accurate or not. 6 Q. Well, if your other information is 7 inaccurate, your opinion might be inaccurate? 8 A. I'm sorry, could you -- 9 Q. Are you saying that if you are given a 10 bunch of inaccurate information, you are going to have 11 good opinions? 12 A. Well, again, what I am saying is part 13 of what I was trained to do, was to assess whether 14 someone is telling the truth or not. So, in that sense, 15 I don't need to -- you know, someone can sit there and be 16 telling me inaccurate information and, I can still make a 17 valid assessment. 18 Q. Are you always going to know when they 19 are telling you the truth? 20 A. I don't think any person can know 100 21 percent of the time, but I think I am within reasonable, 22 medical certainty. 23 Q. And you believe Darlie Routier told 24 you the truth? 25 A. Yes, I do. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4670 1 Q. Okay. And how about the other people 2 you interviewed? Did you believe they were telling you 3 the truth? Darin Routier? 4 A. I believe that -- yes, that he was 5 telling the truth. 6 Q. Okay. Would you agree, Dr. Clayton, 7 that the more information you have, the more accurate 8 your opinion can be? 9 A. Again, I felt like I had enough 10 information for my opinion to be accurate. 11 Q. I know you felt that you had enough, 12 but would you agree that the more information you have, 13 the more accurate your opinion can be? 14 A. What are you -- as far as -- 15 Q. It's kind of a general statement. I'm 16 not trying to trick you or anything. 17 A. Well -- 18 Q. Wouldn't you agree that it is good to 19 have as much information as possible when you are forming 20 an opinion? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And so, the more information 23 you get, usually the better your opinion would be, the 24 more accurate it could be? 25 A. Yes, that could be the case. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4671 1 Q. Okay. Now, how many people -- what 2 exactly is wrong with Mrs. Routier? What condition is it 3 that she has? Is it traumatic amnesia? 4 A. Well, I said that it's my opinion that 5 she has traumatic amnesia for the events. 6 Q. Okay. And, how many times have you 7 treated someone that has this traumatic amnesia? 8 A. I guess I would say I have treated 9 probably, again, 5 to 10 cases, but again, in that sense 10 the goal of treatment is not necessarily to bring back 11 the memory. Oh, I would say probably 10 plus cases. I 12 have evaluated people or observed that they have had that 13 probably in about the same amount. 14 Q. Okay. And, how many murder defendants 15 have you evaluated that have traumatic amnesia or claimed 16 to have had traumatic amnesia? 17 A. Probably out of that 10 about 5 to 7, 18 for some -- again, it's -- there's spots of memory loss, 19 for the events. 20 Q. Okay. Now--- 21 A. I guess you said murder victims? 22 Q. No, I said people accused of murder? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Looking at it from Mrs. 25 Routier's point of view, you are talking about a victim Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4672 1 that would have traumatic amnesia? Is that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. It can cut both ways, can't it? 4 Murderers can have traumatic amnesia also? 5 A. Yes, they can. 6 Q. Okay. A person can commit murder, and 7 just won't remember what they did? 8 A. Yes, I guess in my experience of 9 interviewing murderers that is most predominantly not the 10 case. 11 Q. Right, in fact, I guess you talked 12 about it, what you have to be careful with as a 13 psychiatrist in this situation where someone that is 14 accused of a crime, is that -- I believe your term for it 15 malingering; is that right? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Basically in plain English, that means 18 people will lie to you to try to get out of something? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. Fake a condition? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Lie about their symptoms, that kind of 23 thing? 24 A. Yes, sir, people try to do that. 25 Q. And in this type of situation, you Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4673 1 have to be extremely careful of people doing that, don't 2 you? 3 A. In what type of situation? 4 Q. Well, in a situation where a person is 5 charged with a crime and -- 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. That is the reason I did the forensic 9 fellowship and had the extra training, was to be able to 10 assess that. 11 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you this, is 12 her traumatic amnesia, is that part of what y'all believe 13 some of the disorders y'all go over -- well, let me ask 14 you this: This is DSM-IV, which is the book y'all use in 15 talking about mental disorders and that sort of thing; 16 right? 17 A. Yes, it's used in classification of 18 mental disorders and for filing insurance claims, and 19 that sort of thing. 20 Q. Is that anywhere in here? Traumatic 21 amnesia? 22 A. I don't think it's listed as a 23 diagnosis in and of itself. I think it's under -- they 24 talk about it some under post-traumatic stress disorder. 25 Q. Okay. It can be part of Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4674 1 post-traumatic stress disorder? 2 A. Yes it can. 3 Q. And, in your opinion, is Darlie 4 Routier suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder? 5 A. Again, I haven't -- I think she had 6 some of the symptoms. She is not -- because of her 7 incarceration, she is not -- she is kind of somewhat 8 removed from real life in order to meet the criteria of 9 post-traumatic stress disorder, but yes, I do think she 10 meets some of qualifications. 11 Q. Does your training tell you that in 12 situations where -- well, I think it's as far as 13 malingering goes, y'all are trained that in situations 14 where a lawyer refers the client to you, you have to be 15 extra careful about malingering or lying; is that right? 16 A. That is the case. 17 Q. Okay. And any time a person has a 18 motive, they are under some legal accusation, obviously, 19 you want to be careful of that? 20 A. Yes, I am very careful. 21 Q. And obviously, the more serious the 22 legal accusation the more motive there is for a person to 23 possibly want to get out of it; is that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Now, have you talked to the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4675 1 defendant about what she does remember about what 2 happened that night? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. What has she told you? 5 A. Again, it pretty much -- I have talked 6 to her on several different occasions about it. 7 Q. You have gone over this more than once 8 with her? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Her descriptions of the events follow, 12 but with more detail, her -- the written statement that 13 she gave to the Rowlett detectives. I mean, do you want 14 me to just go through that, or -- 15 Q. You are saying that the statement she 16 gave to Rowlett was more detailed than what she told you? 17 A. No, no, I went over in very minute 18 details. 19 Q. Just tell us what she remembers about 20 that night, please? 21 A. Do you want me to start with when, in 22 the evening? 23 Q. Well, I guess the evening hours when 24 the family got together there. 25 A. Okay. Because we kind of -- the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4676 1 way -- the way it worked is she -- she first, again, that 2 is one of the techniques that you start at different 3 places in the events, in the sequence of events because, 4 it's harder if someone is lying for them to lie out 5 sequence. 6 Q. Right. 7 A. So on my first interview, we started 8 actually when she starts having memories of the offense. 9 And so, could I start there? And then later -- 10 Q. Yes, go ahead. 11 A. Then later, I had her go back to talk 12 about what led up to that. 13 Q. Well, the best way you feel that you 14 can explain it to the jury, you go that way. 15 A. She talks about hearing and feeling, I 16 guess Damon, on her right shoulder, as she was lying on 17 the couch. She saw a man and stood up and saw him run 18 into -- kind of followed him into the kitchen. 19 She said she put her arm on Damon's -- 20 around Damon, and -- or on his chest, and then it dawned 21 that the lights were turned off. And, she describes 22 going over to the island, I guess, in the kitchen, and 23 seeing a knife lying on the floor. Kind of in that, she 24 also describes not really knowing what happened. She 25 kind of felt like her gown, when she woke up, was up to Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4677 1 her waist, but she wasn't sure if that was actually true 2 or not. 3 She said that Damon -- she kind of -- 4 she pushed him up against the wall, she ran over and 5 grabbed the knife. And at that point, she realized that 6 there was blood on her night gown. She saw blood kind of 7 dripping down. She said solid blood. And she put the 8 knife on the counter, and she looked across the room, 9 because now she had turned on the light and she saw 10 Devon, I guess who was laying over, back in the living 11 room, and he had no shirt on. And she said that she saw 12 that his eyes were completely open, and he wasn't moving, 13 and she saw, one wound and her mind started -- she 14 describes it as her mind started spinning, she kind of 15 was running around, she describes it as running all 16 around. Didn't feel anything. 17 She looked at the other little boy, 18 Damon, and he was standing there looking at her, and she 19 said there was nothing on the front, so she turned him 20 around and that is when she saw the stab wounds through 21 his shirt. And she told him to lay down, and said hang 22 on, and she said, that the last thing he said to her was, 23 "Okay, Mommy." 24 She runs to the hall, yelling for her 25 husband. She was just screaming at that point. He comes Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4678 1 down running down the stairs, and he had his jeans on. 2 He says he had his glasses on, but she didn't report 3 that, she wasn't -- she didn't remember the glasses. 4 She said that was, that, "Okay, 5 Mommy." Was the last thing that Damon said to her. 6 She said that she ran -- they ran 7 through the hallway together, and then, that he went to 8 Devon, and she grabbed the phone to the right and called 9 911, and she had the phone I guess it was a portable 10 phone and she had it on her shoulder. And she also 11 grabbed a handful of towels, and went over and started 12 wetting them as she was talking to the 911 operator. 13 I had asked her kind of specifically 14 why wetting towels, and she thought that, in retrospect, 15 she said she wasn't conscious of it at the time, but she 16 thought that she had seen something like that on one of 17 the 911, or emergency shows that they have. 18 So, she said that she wasn't -- had no 19 training in, first aid or CPR but Darin did. And so, she 20 grabbed the towels, and that is when she saw, in some 21 mirror -- she was running somewhere, and she still had 22 the phone, I guess, she describes talking to 911, and she 23 saw her neck for the first time, and said something like, 24 "Oh my God, he got my neck." 25 And then she runs in the living room, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4679 1 and starts putting the towel on Damon's back and Devon 2 (sic) is giving CPR. She reported kind of thinking, at 3 that point, that she didn't know what to do, she didn't 4 know any kind of first aid like Darin did. 5 And, she said she walked back, she 6 laid the towels down and then walked back to Damon, and 7 then she was kind of running around, "I don't know CPR, I 8 felt helpless." 9 Then she ran to the door, and she 10 remembered her friend Karen, I guess, who is a nurse, and 11 she screamed for the neighbor. She said she remembers 12 talking to the 911, and again this is something that most 13 traumatic victims will tell you, is that it seems like it 14 takes forever for the emergency help to get there, and 15 she told me that she goes, "I thought, what is taking 16 them so long," in that help wasn't arriving quick enough. 17 She states that she remembers seeing 18 the vacuum cleaner, seeing the knife again. And she said 19 something about the 911 operator was telling her, you 20 know, "Don't touch anything." And then her response was 21 something like, "I have already touched the knife." And 22 she was crying to her husband, and talking to him about 23 that she shouldn't have touched the knife, they told me 24 not to touch it. 25 She is crying and screaming she says, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4680 1 and, I guess, thinking and saying my babies are dead, she 2 said that -- Darin said there was no pulse after working 3 on, I guess, Damon. 4 She said, then an officer got there, 5 and he just walked in, and he looked scared and did not 6 move, he just kind of stood there, she said. He didn't 7 do anything. 8 She describes then other people 9 started kind of coming in, and talking and she couldn't 10 think. She describes feeling dizzy, that she couldn't 11 get her breath, that she felt like she was dizzy. And 12 the officer said: "Where did he go?" And she, I guess, 13 told the officer, "Out that door." She said that the 14 officer didn't go out there. 15 And then she said the two officers 16 went to the kitchen and then the paramedic comes in. She 17 remembers seeing -- she described remembering -- she said 18 that the police said that Karen wasn't in the house, but 19 she remembers Karen coming on over, and being there, kind 20 of in -- and she describes a very chaotic scene, where 21 everybody is running around and screaming and everything. 22 She said that the paramedic came in, 23 and then she said, "Is he dead?" 24 And the paramedic pulled him over and, 25 I guess at this point she is talking about Devon. And Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4681 1 his eyes were open, and she said -- or he said he is 2 dead. 3 And then the paramedics started 4 talking to her, and the next thing she remembers is about 5 a necklace, the necklace kind of being embedded in her 6 neck or something, and something about that. And she 7 said most of this is really very hazy. 8 She didn't remember the E.R. She 9 didn't remember really much about getting in the 10 ambulance except that Darin wanted to get in the 11 ambulance and then they said, no, he couldn't. 12 Her next real, kind of clear, 13 consistent, lengthy memory, is her mom being in her room 14 and she was asking her mom if they were both dead. 15 Again, do you want me to go on? I 16 mean, then we're kind of getting into -- 17 Q. Well, that gets more into her hospital 18 stay? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. When did her memory clear up? 21 A. Well, again, her memory is very patchy 22 or spotty for a lot of the time, before her arrest. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. And I even think within the first day 25 or so of her arrest, it's kind of, you know, she kind of Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4682 1 again, remembers some things and then other people told 2 her other things. 3 Q. Okay. So you went over this story 4 with her several times? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And in quite a bit of detail? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. And, what you have just related 9 to the jury, is that the story that she would tell you 10 every time? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Again, I can go back. I started -- we 14 had, where we started that morning, started that evening, 15 you know, with cooking dinner. 16 Again, I started at the point of 17 waking up, I started at the point of waking up in the 18 hospital. I started at the point of Darin running down 19 the stairs. There were just a lot of -- you start at 20 different points? 21 Q. Right. That is -- she gave you the 22 same story? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. As out and running through, and waking 25 up, and this man is what, walking off? Or where is he Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4683 1 when she spots him? 2 A. Yes, she describes seeing a figure, 3 that I guess she assumes he is a man, kind of with his 4 back to her, walking away, or into the kitchen. 5 Again, I never -- that is -- okay. 6 Q. Now, and then you went into great 7 detail about what happened after that, as far as where 8 she was with the towels and the children and the 9 paramedics and all of that, didn't you? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And, basically it was the same story 12 every time? 13 A. Yes, within reason. Again, I think 14 anybody, in that situation, including probably the 15 paramedics and even the police, when something is so 16 chaotic, and everybody is -- everybody's adrenalin is 17 running, and there is some, you know, you may not 18 remember where you step five feet over this way, versus 19 going over to this chair, or picking up this, versus 20 that, and in what order, I mean, there may be some normal 21 discrepancy. In fact, if there are not, I would think 22 someone was not being truthful. 23 Q. Did she ever tell you that she 24 actually went over to Devon and put her hand on his 25 chest, and tried to close his chest wound? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4684 1 A. Yes, in one of her descriptions, she 2 did. 3 Q. She did tell you that? 4 A. She kind of talked about going over 5 there, going over there to him, and trying to -- well, I 6 guess she was talking about going over there to him, and 7 yes, I think I remember that. 8 Q. Is that one of the later times? 9 A. You mean -- 10 Q. When you said -- when you asked her 11 about the story? 12 A. Again, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't 13 know shorthand, so I don't take everything down, but it 14 may not have been the first time I spoke with her, it may 15 have been the second or third time but, I mean -- 16 Q. Did you -- you said she remembered 17 seeing a vacuum cleaner? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Where was that? 20 A. She didn't say where it was. 21 Q. Did she ever say she did anything with 22 it? 23 A. I would have to look. Do you want me 24 to go back through whether -- I know there was some -- I 25 know she felt like that there was some discrepancy in the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4685 1 way that the police detectives had described the vacuum 2 cleaner, and the way that she knew it was suppose to have 3 been, or was. 4 Q. Well, did she ever say that she was 5 using that as a crutch, or walking around with it, or 6 anything like that? 7 A. No, she did not tell me about anything 8 like that. 9 Q. Okay. Now, so, as far as the attack 10 goes, I guess she has no memory of that? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Her boys being attacked and then the 13 assault on her? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And -- okay. Did you ask her about 16 that, to try to see if she had any memory at all? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Okay. And she has just blanked that 19 out apparently, as far as the attack on her children and 20 herself goes? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Her earliest memory would be her son 23 touching her and this man walking away? 24 A. Yes, sir. I mean, I guess her 25 assumption is that there was -- that some of it may have Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4686 1 happened while she was still asleep. And, that she 2 didn't kind of awaken or whatever, until her son was 3 pressing on her on arm and said, "Mommy." 4 Q. Has she told you that she was just 5 assuming that, that she was asleep when all this assault 6 occurred? 7 A. Yeah, I mean, she doesn't understand 8 it, and her description was that she wishes she could 9 remember, and she doesn't -- I mean, she doesn't 10 understand why she doesn't have a memory of it. 11 Q. Okay. So she has no memory of this 12 event at all as to when her -- where her children were 13 attacked, when attacked or when she was attacked? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Now you only caught part of 16 that Silly String video, I guess you said, on the news; 17 is that right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, could I have 22 just a moment, please? 23 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 24 MR. TOBY SHOOK: All right. Let me 25 play something here. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4687 1 THE WITNESS: All right. 2 MR. TOBY SHOOK: All right. We have 3 another copy. Judge, I don't see the original videotape. 4 We have another copy. 5 THE COURT: Perhaps Ms. Wallace 6 wouldn't mind going to get that. 7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: Well, let's move on to 9 something else. 10 MR. TOBY SHOOK: All right. 11 12 13 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 14 Q. All right. When do you think that 15 this traumatic amnesia took place. When did it start? 16 Right there at that time? 17 A. Well -- 18 19 THE COURT: I believe Ms. Wallace has 20 located that other copy now, if you want to go ahead, Mr. 21 Shook. 22 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Yes, sir. 23 THE COURT: By agreement, that is an 24 extra copy of that tape, and it can be shown; is that 25 correct? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4688 1 MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: Absolutely. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's move on. 3 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Okay. Thank you. 4 THE COURT: All right. Okay. Can 5 you see it from there? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Is everybody going to 8 be able to see this? Can you see it, Dr. Clayton? 9 THE WITNESS: Um-hum. (Witness 10 nodding head affirmatively.) 11 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Okay. I want to show 12 you -- this is the latter part of the interview, just 13 show you one part of it. 14 15 (Whereupon, a portion of 16 the video was played for 17 the jury, after which time, 18 the proceedings were 19 resumed on the record, 20 as follows:) 21 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 24 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 25 Q. Did you hear that? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4689 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Do you want me to play it again? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. I mean, I know it was kind of quick? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Okay. "He went after something 7 defenseless, something so defenseless first, then he came 8 to me, but he went after them first." 9 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head 10 affirmatively.) 11 Q. Did you hear her making that 12 statement? 13 A. Yes, sir, I did. 14 Q. Okay. That is a pretty positive 15 statement, isn't it, Dr. Clayton? 16 A. I think it's an assumption. 17 Q. You think it's an assumption? 18 A. Well, that she made, and I think 19 everybody else also pretty much made, as far as how the 20 events occurred. 21 Q. Well, why do you think it's an 22 assumption that she made, that she said, "He went to them 23 first, and then he tried to come to me"? 24 A. I guess I just -- this has just been 25 an assumption made by her and everybody else, I think, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4690 1 with this case. 2 Q. Well, she didn't say that she is 3 assuming that on that statement, does she? 4 A. No, she does not. 5 Q. She sounds pretty positive about what 6 she is talking about, doesn't she? 7 A. Well, again, I think she -- she thinks 8 that is the way it occurred, but I don't think that comes 9 from her memory. 10 Q. So -- 11 A. Or she has not told me that comes from 12 her memory. 13 Q. So when she makes this statement, and 14 this is back on the 14th of June. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. She just doesn't know what she 17 is talking about? 18 A. Well, I think she is stating what she 19 thinks is true. 20 Q. Okay. She is just assuming that, and 21 that is your opinion? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. If she has amnesia, traumatic 24 amnesia, it should be pretty consistent, shouldn't it? I 25 mean if she doesn't remember the events, she shouldn't Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4691 1 remember the events, right? 2 A. Well, again, and it's something that, 3 I guess, I questioned her extensively about was that she 4 had, you know, various people, kind of, "Well did you 5 fight him off? Do you remember that?" And, at some 6 point, everybody has somewhat of a sense of -- or 7 somewhat of a suggestibility realm, and I think we talked 8 about that, and she stated that she had made a 9 statement -- and I can't remember to whom, but she said 10 something like, "I must have tried to fight him off. It 11 must have happened, that, you know, he, you know, was 12 trying to stab me and I was fighting him off." 13 But as far as her consistent 14 recollection of the events, that I have kind of related 15 to you, that has all been very consistent. I think we 16 talked about it, and I questioned her about various 17 statements that have either been, I guess, stated that 18 she said, or that she may have actually said, at some 19 point, how they might be more -- have been more 20 suggestions, or her trying to make sense out of what 21 happened. And in the sense that: It must have happened 22 like this. 23 Q. So, if you heard, or are given 24 information that on the -- when she was at Baylor 25 Hospital, that she told a nurse, that she laying on her Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4692 1 right side in her bed and she said, "I was lying just 2 like this when it happened. I went to sleep. Damon woke 3 me up. There was a man wrestling at my neck area, and I 4 yelled, and he went off, and ran off." 5 Would that be just her trying to 6 remember events or perhaps that is just -- perhaps she 7 didn't get her story straight yet? 8 A. Well, it's my opinion that is probably 9 a misrecollection of either Mrs. Routier, or the nurse, 10 as to exactly what was worded when. 11 Q. So your opinion is that would just be 12 a misrecollection on her part? 13 A. Or the witness that says that is what 14 she said. 15 Q. Oh, the witness. That would be a 16 mistake on the witness's part? 17 A. Well, when anybody is recounting 18 something that they have heard in a very traumatic event, 19 words like must have happened, or it must have been this 20 way, or maybe it did, might get lost or misunderstood. 21 Q. Well, have you interviewed any of 22 these nurses that heard her various stories of how this 23 happened? 24 A. No, I was not privy to talk with them. 25 Q. Okay. Of course, the other Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4693 1 explanation for it could be, Dr. Clayton, is that she 2 just had not gotten her story straight? 3 A. I guess that could be one explanation, 4 yes. 5 Q. Right. And you say that you tested 6 her, to make she is telling the truth, and you can do 7 that by having her go through this story, and checking 8 for discrepancies, and that sort of thing, and you 9 started at different points; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, if she is saying, "I have 12 traumatic amnesia," and she can't remember any of the 13 assault, you obviously can't question her or try to trick 14 her on that, can you? 15 A. Well, you can question her about the 16 events, or what does she think happened, and that sort of 17 thing, but as far as -- 18 Q. Well, if she says, "I just don't 19 remember what happened." You can't really question her 20 about a whole bunch, can you? 21 A. No, not about specific details. 22 Q. If she says "I can't remember anything 23 about how I was attacked or my children were attacked, 24 you can't test her on her truthfulness on that, can you? 25 I mean, that kind of shuts it down, doesn't it? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4694 1 A. Well, about the specific details, yes, 2 sir. 3 Q. Okay. And that is what is important 4 here, isn't it? The specific details. I mean, this can 5 be kind of a convenient defense, if you say "I just don't 6 remember what happened." That prevents detectives from 7 asking questions like, "Well, golly, how could you sleep 8 through your children being murdered, Mrs. Routier?" 9 "I just don't remember. I have got 10 traumatic amnesia". 11 A. Well, sometimes some events are 12 unexplainable. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. And there have been other case reports 15 and literature where people, when -- even when they 16 wanted to remember specific events were unable to, and 17 just didn't. And, it is my opinion that this is one of 18 these cases. 19 Q. Okay. But, this type of traumatic 20 amnesia, it's very rare, isn't it? 21 A. Again, people not remembering events, 22 it's somewhat rare, as far as in the general population, 23 because, not that many people are attacked, or have that 24 violent assault. But, among violent assault victims, it 25 may not be the common occurrence, but it's not, you know, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4695 1 it does happen. I mean, I don't know what you 2 statistically mean by rare. 3 Q. Okay. Well, if she tells detectives 4 on the morning when they question her on the 6th, that 5 she struggled with this man on the couch, are you saying 6 that she was just being -- that they were suggesting this 7 to her, or she was misinterpreting things? 8 A. Well, in any kind of police or 9 detective interrogation, there are a lot of different 10 interpretations about what they are doing with their 11 questioning, and whether a lot of times, police or 12 detectives interrogating someone, or questioning him, may 13 say, "Well, could it have happen like this and that?" 14 And so, I don't know, I wasn't there, 15 and I have not seen any kind of statement written, or 16 heard anybody say that statement, that she said that. 17 So -- 18 Q. Okay. And if she told any other 19 nurses throughout the day that, "This man was standing 20 over me, and tried to attack me, and I fought him off". 21 That would be just something that she is trying to 22 explain to them or just something that she is grabbing 23 out of the thin air, or something that they are 24 suggesting to her? 25 A. Again, I would have had to -- for me Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4696 1 to know that she actually told those nurses that, I would 2 have had to hear that for myself. 3 Q. Okay. And if she told a good friend 4 of hers, by the name of Barbara Jovell, that the man was 5 standing over her, and started to stab her and she was 6 able to block the knife, again, would that be just 7 something that she was just making up? 8 A. Again, I would have had to -- for me 9 to believe that actually happened, I would have to hear 10 her telling her that. 11 Q. Why would you have to be there, and be 12 present, Dr. Clayton? 13 A. Because I know of this woman's mental 14 history. 15 Q. Okay. Now, that you saw this video 16 tape -- do you know of the nurses mental history? 17 A. No, sir, I don't. 18 Q. Is that why you would have to -- well, 19 why would you have to be there when the nurses -- 20 A. Well, again, for someone to remember a 21 statement that someone made in the course of their work 22 six months ago, I mean, I have trouble, you know, 23 recollecting things, and I have taken handwritten notes, 24 again, people's memory is not infallible, and if they 25 have not taken notes and -- Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4697 1 Q. So if they have taken careful notes, 2 you could trust their memory more on that, couldn't you? 3 A. I would be more likely to trust their 4 memory, yes, sir. 5 Q. If you knew one of those nurses took 6 two and a half pages worth of notes, within the day of 7 her telling that, would you trust the nurse then? 8 A. Well, again, I would have to know the 9 nurse and the situation and also read the notes. 10 Q. Okay. So you just have to know the 11 nurse and the situation, before you could trust her, 12 whether she is telling the truth about that? 13 A. Well, for you to have me make an 14 opinion about something that was said, I would -- again, 15 it would be best if I had heard actually what was being 16 said, and in what context. 17 Q. Okay. And this videotape you just saw 18 of her statement, that he went to them first, and then he 19 tried to come to me. Does it look like anyone was 20 suggesting anything to her at that time? 21 A. Not at that time, but I know that she 22 had been -- had come from a police interrogation. And 23 also had had, I think one other one in the hospital 24 before that. 25 Q. You told this jury that when the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4698 1 police came and questioned her that she was on Demerol? 2 A. That is my understanding, yes. 3 Q. Okay. And because she was on Demerol, 4 that acted as kind of a truth serum? 5 A. Well, Demerol is a narcotic, and so is 6 Phenergan, and yes, they tend to -- again it's a lot 7 like, people are more disinhibited and, in trying to -- 8 where you just, in like similar to when someone is 9 drinking, except it is usually a little heavier sedation, 10 to kind of disinhibit inhibition, that people are more 11 likely to tell the truth, or not be able to follow along 12 with previous lies or deceptions. They are just not as 13 sharp, so the truth comes out. 14 Q. So, are you telling this jury, that if 15 she was on some Demerol there, and had committed this 16 murder, that she would have told the police: "I did it." 17 Because Demerol acts like truth serum? 18 A. Well, I said, that is a possibility, 19 yes, sir, that if she were going to -- I mean, most 20 people that commit murders confess. Most people have -- 21 Q. They do? 22 A. Yes, sir, they do. At one point or 23 another. 24 Q. I guess they keep giving me the wrong 25 cases. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4699 1 All right. Are there any studies that show 2 that Demerol acts as a truth serum? 3 A. No. Again, I am comparing it to the 4 Amytal interview, and there are many, many studies about 5 that being -- 6 Q. What is a Amytal interview? 7 A. Amytal is another narcotic, that is 8 used in the psychiatric community, when someone is either 9 consciously or subconsciously not being truthful. 10 Q. They don't use Demerol for that, do 11 they? 12 A. No, Demerol is longer acting. That is 13 one of the reasons that Amytal is used, is because it is 14 very short acting, and they come out of it. 15 Q. Is that other drug you talked about, 16 is that a painkiller? 17 A. Amytal? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. It can be used somewhat that way. 20 Again, it's somewhat of a heavy sedation. You might use 21 it in some sort of surgery procedure. It basically, to 22 my knowledge, is pretty much just used in those type of 23 interviews at this point. 24 Q. Do you know how much Demerol she was 25 given before the detectives talked to her? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4700 1 A. No, I do not. 2 Q. Okay. If it was a very light amount, 3 would that change your opinion on that? 4 A. Well, again, I would -- because of the 5 Phenergan also, and I know that she was given, or I -- I 6 seem to recollect that she was given 25 milligrams. 7 Q. What is Phenergan? 8 A. Phenergan is another narcotic that is 9 used to sedate people. It is also used to decrease 10 nausea, vomiting and also diarrhea. 11 Q. And they give you the Phenergan with 12 the Demerol to keep you from getting an upset stomach, 13 right? 14 A. Yeah, but anybody that has had a 15 Phenergan shot, knows that it -- unless you have been 16 addicted, and using it on a daily basis, it makes you 17 very sedated. 18 Q. Okay. But having this traumatic 19 amnesia, again, that prevents any detective or anyone 20 else from asking key questions about what may have 21 happened in that room, doesn't it, Dr. Clayton? 22 A. Well, it's my understanding that 23 from -- 24 Q. Is that right, Dr. Clayton? 25 A. No, it doesn't prevent a detective Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4701 1 from asking that. 2 Q. It doesn't? So -- 3 4 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Excuse me, Judge, 5 if he will just do her the courtesy of letting her answer 6 the question. 7 THE COURT: Well, I think both sides 8 should do that, yes, sir. Mr. Shook, please do that, and 9 ask another question and then let her answer that. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think it 11 prohibits the detective from asking. 12 13 BY MR. TOBY SHOOK: 14 Q. Well, it would prevent -- I guess if 15 the person said, "I just have amnesia, and I can't 16 remember." 17 He can't ask her those few questions. 18 It wouldn't do him any good, would it? 19 A. Well, I don't know, I'm not a 20 detective, but I think that he could ask the questions, 21 and I think that they -- my understanding is that they 22 did, over many, many hours, on different occasions. 23 Q. Do you think that she slept through 24 this attack? 25 A. I guess it's my opinion that probably Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4702 1 she was somewhat -- she was -- she probably didn't awake, 2 and maybe was somewhat, because of her injury at the 3 time, was kind of in some sort of daze, or again, people 4 can get up and walk around and do a lot of things, and 5 still kind of not be conscious. There is something 6 called somnolism. 7 Anyway, I can't for sure tell you, but 8 again, I believe she is telling me the truth when she 9 describes the events. 10 Q. Do you know how close those boys were 11 to her on the couch? 12 A. I think they were within a few feet. 13 Q. Okay. And you knew that Damon -- do 14 you know what kind of stab wounds Damon received? 15 A. Damon, my understanding is that he was 16 stabbed in the back. 17 Q. Okay. How many times? 18 A. I don't know, several. 19 Q. At least four penetrating wounds, and 20 two incised wounds. 21 A. All right. 22 Q. And Darlie told you that she was a 23 light sleeper, didn't she? 24 A. No. What she told me was that she had 25 always thought that she was a light sleeper, but it is Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4703 1 more that she -- once she was awake, she had trouble 2 getting back to sleep. 3 Q. Okay. Did she tell you, or do you 4 remember reading in her voluntary statement that she 5 wanted to sleep downstairs because she woke up when the 6 baby turned over? 7 A. She said -- yeah, I read that in the 8 statement. 9 Q. Okay. If Damon Routier was about one 10 foot from her, or two feet at the most, when he was 11 stabbed in the back, do you believe that she could have 12 slept through that? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. What does your common sense tell you? 15 A. That probably she wouldn't have been 16 asleep. 17 Q. Okay. And, if her other son, Devon, 18 was about as far as from me to you when he was stabbed in 19 the chest twice. Do you think that she would have slept 20 through that? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Well, what does your common sense tell 23 you? 24 A. I guess, that at that distance, I 25 think some people could possibly sleep through it, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4704 1 depending on the amount of noise and what happened. 2 Q. What about if she was hit a whole 3 bunch and caused blunt trauma to her arms, she is not 4 going to sleep through that, is she? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. And she is certainly -- 7 A. I would not -- 8 Q. You wouldn't think she would? 9 A. I would not think so. 10 Q. Okay. And you wouldn't think she 11 could sleep through getting her throat slashed, or her 12 arm cut, or anything like that, would you? You probably 13 would wake up if that happened, wouldn't you? 14 A. Again, yes, but I think that she has 15 no memory of it, and I think that it's explainable. 16 Q. Okay. You read over her voluntary 17 statement; is that right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And you also -- well, let me ask you 20 this: Do you remember in the voluntary statement, her 21 making the statement that, in the middle of all this 22 commotion going on, with the children laying there 23 bleeding, Darin trying to administer CPR; do you have a 24 copy of it? 25 A. Yes, sir. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4705 1 Q. Okay. Good. Go to page 7. I'm 2 sorry, page 8, and in the middle there, you see the 3 sentence that starts out, "I then stood up and turned 4 around and saw glass all over the kitchen floor." 5 A. Well, I'm not sure where that is. 6 Q. Page 8, it should be up at the top. 7 A. Then holding a towel -- 8 Q. Go to page 8. Is it the next one? 9 Let me check it out. No, that's too far. Here it is. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. All right. Do you see where it says, 12 "I then stood up and turned around, and saw glass all 13 over the kitchen floor." 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. That is part of the statement where 16 she is -- Darin has come down and is attending to Devon, 17 and she is calling 911; is that right? 18 A. That is my understanding. 19 Q. All right. And then, the next 20 sentence is, "I tried to glance over to see if anything 21 was out of place, and if anything was missing." 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And she told you on the 911, I 24 believe it is apparent on the 911 tape, she says, 25 "Nothing is touched, nothing is touched," one time in Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4706 1 there; is that right? 2 A. I don't remember hearing that 3 statement. 4 Q. Okay. Does it seem strange to you, 5 that a mother that is witnessing all this, was woken up, 6 her children are stabbed, and her husband is trying to 7 administer aid, and she starts taking an inventory, to 8 see if items are missing; does that seem like strange 9 behavior to you? 10 A. Well, again, human behavior, people do 11 a lot of different things, and focus on a lot of 12 different things when things are happening. 13 My view of the situation is, and her 14 description of it repeatedly to me was that that may have 15 been like a split second kind of look, or later on 16 something that she kind of thought about, but her main 17 concern was the boys and their, you know, being hurt. 18 Q. Well, but we know from her statement 19 that at one time during that scenario, her concern was, 20 she wanted to see if any of her items were gone. 21 A. Well, again, if you are looking 22 around, or if you are just glancing at a room, you might 23 just glance and make a statement about that. 24 Q. So you think that is a normal 25 reaction? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4707 1 A. To glance at a surrounding when you 2 are -- 3 Q. Well, are you assuming that she just 4 glanced at the surrounding? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Do you recall on the 911 tape 7 her saying about the knife, "Oh, I picked it up. Maybe 8 we could have gotten prints off of that." 9 A. The way I remember the tape, is 10 hearing the operator saying, "Don't pick up or don't 11 touch that, and then her saying, 'Oh I picked it up.'" 12 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of the 13 transcript or did you just listen to it? 14 A. I just listened to it. 15 Q. Okay. Let me show you what has been 16 marked as State's Exhibits 18-E, and I will let you start 17 looking at page 9. 18 A. All right. 19 Q. And if you will go over to the next 20 page, do you see where she starts talking about picking 21 up the knife? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. Now, at that point, actually 24 the 911 operator was saying: "You need to let the police 25 officers in the front door," is that right? At least, Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4708 1 according to that document. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And then her response is, "His 4 knife was lying over there, and I already picked it up"; 5 is that right? 6 A. Well, I see it, but it is printed as 7 unintelligible -- 8 9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, this is -- 10 we will object -- 11 THE COURT: Just a minute, ma'am. 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, this is 13 misleading and this is out of context, and he knows that. 14 He knows that there are a number of 15 conversations going on at that same time, that a police 16 officer is already there, and she's talking to the police 17 officer, and she is talking to her husband, and she is 18 talking to 911. 19 THE COURT: What is your legal 20 objection? 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, that is my 22 objection. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. Go 24 ahead. 25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: He has misadvised Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4709 1 the witness as to the circumstances. 2 MR. TOBY SHOOK:: I'm not trying to 3 misadvise you, Doctor. It comes up several times. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Go ahead, continue. 6 7 BY MR. TOBY SHOOK: 8 Q. Now, I just want to talk about the 9 time she talks about getting prints. That only comes up 10 once. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And then, the operator says, 13 "Okay, it's all right. It's okay." And then, it says, 14 female caller, "God, I bet we could have gotten the 15 prints maybe, maybe." 16 Do you think that is normal behavior 17 for a mother on the 911 call, talking to an operator, 18 while her children are lying there dying? 19 A. Well, I think it is in the realm. 20 Again, I listened to the whole tape, and the whole 21 conversation sounds very in the realm of appropriateness, 22 or of a mother with two dying children. 23 Q. Okay. So, you think there was nothing 24 inappropriate, or abnormal, or strange about that comment 25 at all? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4710 1 A. Not in the whole context of the 911 2 call, no, sir. 3 Q. Okay. What did she tell you about -- 4 what her suicide was all about? The May 3rd suicide 5 attempt. 6 A. Well -- 7 Q. Or contemplation of suicide. 8 A. Well, it wasn't an attempt. Again, 9 her description of it was that she was just feeling kind 10 of somewhat overwhelmed. That, she had, I guess, bought 11 some over-the-counter pills and she was thinking about 12 taking them. That she started writing out the note, but 13 then she didn't think she could do it. Or thought about 14 writing it, I don't remember which, but in the event, she 15 called her husband, and essentially told him that, "You 16 need to come home. I'm feeling really bad." 17 And he came home, and they cried, and 18 talked and things got better very shortly after that. 19 Q. Okay. And, did she tell you that the 20 first time you talked to her, when you saw her in jail 21 back on June the 20th? 22 A. Well -- 23 Q. Let me get some of that stuff out of 24 your hands. 25 A. When, I saw her, pretty much, I Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4711 1 think -- whenever you are interviewing someone, like, as 2 far as in jail, to assess if they are suicidal. What I 3 always do, that first interview is a little longer, is 4 you ask them about past suicide attempts. I didn't know, 5 I mean, I wasn't privy to any of the police things, so 6 just in my regular talking to her as an inmate, I asked 7 her if she had ever -- was she suicidal now, and she said 8 no, and -- that -- and I asked her if she had ever 9 thought of -- or if she had ever had any other suicide 10 attempts. 11 And she said no, she had not had an 12 attempt, but that she had thought about suicide. And, 13 she again, this is her just talking to me as a jail 14 psychiatrist, that she felt tired and upset, and that she 15 actually bought some over-the-counter pills, but wrote a 16 note and knew she couldn't do it, she called her husband, 17 he came home, they talked and cried, and she felt better, 18 and that the depression was gone after -- totally gone by 19 a month. 20 She said things were better. She 21 talked about them starting to do things as a family. 22 Doing things I mentioned -- or she mentioned I remember, 23 roller blades. She denied -- I asked her, then I asked 24 her, "Do you know anybody that has actually killed 25 themselves?" Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4712 1 Again, that is a question you ask, 2 because it increases their risk factor. 3 Q. Okay. And, you are referring to your 4 notes that you made? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Made there? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. If I could see those for just a 9 moment? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. The documents here, State's Exhibit 12 145, your notes from all of your visits, are included in 13 all of that; is that right? 14 A. Yes, to my knowledge they are. 15 Q. From what you have seen; right? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And then I guess, the two other 18 psychiatrists, their notations are contained in here? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then I believe there are some 21 nurses notations also; is that right? 22 A. Yeah, in the way you have the 23 documents put together, in the actual chart, the way it 24 is, is the doctors' notes are on blue sheets and they are 25 separate from the nurses' notes. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4713 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Which are on, I think, white sheets. 3 Q. But they are all kept together, are 4 they not? 5 A. Yes, but they are not in -- again they 6 are separated out. The doctors, from day one to the 7 current date are in one place, and then the nurses, from 8 day one to the current are in another place. They are 9 not like blue, white, blue, white pages. 10 Q. They are all regular business records 11 for the stuff that you do when you see -- 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Patients out there? 14 A. Medical records. 15 Q. Medical records? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. You use business records. Okay. But 18 they are all kept in the regular course of you and the 19 other doctors and the nurses duties; is that right? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. And, they are on the Dallas 22 County medical records sheets that -- the information 23 that you usually put it on; is that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And all of these records here are all Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4714 1 related to Darlie Lynn Routier; is that right? 2 A. That is my understanding, I mean, yeah 3 if they have got a name on it, I assume, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 6 MR. TOBY SHOOK: We will offer all of 7 State's Exhibit 145 at this time, Judge. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, again we 9 don't have any objection to the notes that Dr. Clayton 10 took on there, but we're not going to agree -- A: We 11 have not read it; and, B: We are not going to agree to 12 some notes that -- 13 THE COURT: Well, take time to read it 14 right now. 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: This may take 16 some time -- 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, one 19 other thing, she is not the custodian. She is not the 20 proper person to support this. 21 THE COURT: Well, then my ruling is, 22 if she is not the custodian, I am going to let in those 23 records that she can identify. I think I have made that 24 clear. And the others, they can question her about them, 25 but we're not going to admit those. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4715 1 She is not the custodian of the 2 records, and so, I think we have already admitted those, 3 and she has said that -- the Doctor has said that she can 4 identify, and the others will not be admitted at this 5 time. 6 So, what else do we have to rule on? 7 Let's move on. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. 9 10 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 11 Q. All right. Well, let me show you the 12 first page here. Those are some nurses' notes taken on 13 the 18th of June; is that right? 14 A. Yeah. Again, I don't feel like -- I 15 don't fell confident in talking about anything but the 16 notes that I know I wrote, because -- 17 18 THE COURT: All right. That's fine. 19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, he 20 is try to do indirectly what he cannot do directly. 21 THE COURT: I understand all of that, 22 and the ruling stays the same. Let's move on to 23 something else, Mr. Shook. 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4716 1 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 2 Q. Do you think that someone might have 3 slipped something in there, Doctor? 4 A. No, I just don't know that -- I am not 5 familiar with that part of the record, but I do recognize 6 my own writing. 7 Q. Well, let's stick just to your notes. 8 Okay? 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. First of all, when you first saw -- 11 12 THE COURT: We are going to continue 13 with this witness, ladies and gentlemen, if we can 14 possibly finish today. 15 16 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: 17 Q. When you saw her on the 20th, you 18 didn't feel any need to prescribe antidepressants, or any 19 other medication at that time, did you? 20 A. I don't know -- feel any need, I 21 thought that her -- as far as treating, I guess, my 22 medical opinion, as far as treating depression, is that 23 you don't necessarily treat someone for major depression, 24 when they have just undergone a traumatic event. Because 25 that is appropriate to have a depressed mood, and grief Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4717 1 and sorrow. So -- 2 Q. Did you prescribe any antidepressants 3 or medications at that time? 4 A. No, I did not. 5 Q. Okay. She was able to sleep and eat 6 okay at that time, wasn't she? 7 A. She again, she -- her eating, she 8 described as fair. She said her sleeping was -- I guess 9 I wrote okay. Again, I think I was assessing it in the 10 context of the situation. Most people don't go to sleep 11 and -- but she was having -- or getting some sleep. 12 Usually the way the jail works and just after any 13 traumatic situation it is within an hour or two, and then 14 another hour. But -- I assessed her sleeping as 15 appropriate for the situation. 16 Q. Okay. And, you have not seen all of 17 this tape that was taken by Channel 5 out at the grave 18 site, called the Silly String party, have you? 19 A. No, I have not. 20 Q. Okay. But you say that that is an 21 appropriate grief response. That is appropriate 22 behavior; is that right? 23 A. Well, the events surrounding it have 24 been described to me by Mrs. Routier, her husband, her 25 mother, and I guess I have heard various comments, or Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4718 1 seen various comments other people have made about it in 2 the paper, and the description. 3 Q. But you have not seen it yourself; 4 right? 5 A. No, I have not seen the whole thing, 6 no, sir. 7 Q. It has only been described to you by 8 the defendant, her husband, and the mother? 9 A. And the news media. 10 Q. And the news media? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And, you think that that is 13 appropriate behavior what went on out there? 14 A. Well, again, I don't think it's -- I 15 don't think you can say what is appropriate and not 16 appropriate in grief situations. I think everybody 17 grieves differently, and that, if people were at an Irish 18 wake, or something like that, that some people might 19 think it was inappropriate. 20 I think it's in the realm of normal 21 grieving. And I know that Mrs. Routier is on trial for 22 murder, but everybody else there is not, so obviously, 23 they were, you know, grieving in the same type of way 24 that she was. 25 Q. And, how much are you paid for your Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4719 1 work that you have done? 2 A. I'm paid an hourly fee. 3 Q. How much is that? 4 A. Two hundred and fifty dollars an hour. 5 Q. Okay. Are you paid any more while you 6 testify? 7 A. No, sir, it's my -- I bill, actually 8 I'm kind of in the middle of the road for forensic 9 psychiatrists. Some of the other ones bill up to three 10 hundred and fifty to four hundred dollars an hour. 11 But, I bill for my time, no matter 12 whether it's reviewing records or testifying, it's all a 13 part of my time. So I bill the same amount. 14 Q. And what is your total bill for this 15 case going to be? Do you have that totaled up yet? 16 A. No, I don't. I have not -- I have not 17 totaled it up. My secretary bills monthly, and I don't 18 even know if she has sent out the bill for December. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And I know she has not sent it out for 21 January, because it's not over yet. 22 Q. Okay. As far as the categories you 23 were going over that Mrs. Routier doesn't fit into. One 24 was revenge; is that right? Or what was that category 25 called? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4720 1 A. I think specifically, retaliation or 2 spousal revenge. 3 Q. Spousal revenge. 4 A. Yes. That was Dr. Resnick's category. 5 Q. Okay. And, of course, your 6 information about their relationship comes from Darin 7 Routier and Darlie Routier; is that right? 8 A. Well, also, the mother-in-law. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. And then her mother. 11 Q. And her mother? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So as far as whether there is any 14 problems in their relationship, and what was going on, 15 you have to depend on those people to give you the 16 accurate information; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And did she tell you that they 19 had been fighting that night, that Wednesday night? 20 A. She -- yes, I mean, again, throughout 21 the whole, I guess, 12 and a half hours, she has been 22 very forthright and honest about their problems, their 23 lumps and bumps in the marriage. 24 Q. What were they fighting about? 25 A. She was upset because he -- his Jaguar Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4721 1 had been breaking down all the time, and I guess what had 2 kind of culminated it, was that he had left it somewhere, 3 and the man had called her that afternoon, and kind of 4 been rude to her, about having Darin come get the Jaguar. 5 People kind of described Darin, or the 6 people that I have interviewed, as someone that you kind 7 of have to tell him several times to do something before 8 he does it. 9 So, she was kind of aggravated she 10 stated because he hadn't -- he didn't take care of the 11 Jaguar and here she was having to deal with this man 12 calling her up and being rude, while she had her kids, 13 and, you know, neighborhood kids and everybody in and out 14 of the house. 15 Also, she was a little bit upset 16 because Darin was taking her -- I guess she had a 17 Pathfinder, and that kind of was leaving her and the 18 kids, and they were wanting to go do things and run 19 around, now that school was out. And so, she was upset 20 about that. 21 And, then also, they had a boat that 22 they had not really used in a long time, and because of 23 now that they had the baby, she said that she wasn't 24 planning on using it. I guess, because they wouldn't 25 take the baby out to the lake, and so, she felt like that Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4722 1 something needed to be done because here they had this 2 car that wasn't working too well, that was going to cost 3 them money to fix, and here they had this boat that was 4 not working well, that was going to cost them money to 5 fix, and both of these were kind of Darin's deal, and she 6 wanted him to -- I guess, my understanding was that she 7 wanted him to make a decision and get something done. 8 Darin, you know, they argued back and 9 forth, they argued, and she stated that kind of -- and he 10 also stated that what kind of came out of it was that he 11 was going to fix the boat, and then sell it because they 12 weren't going to use it, and then get the car fixed, and 13 then consider buying more reliable than a Jaguar, a 14 little more reliable means of transportation. 15 Q. And, do you believe that they had a 16 very happy relationship from what they told you? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Okay. And, you believe Darlie when 19 she tells you that she can't remember any of this that 20 happened? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. Okay. But you were not present at the 23 house during any of this, were you, Dr. Clayton? 24 A. No, sir, I was not. 25 Q. And you were not present at the house Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4723 1 during the month leading up to this, and saw how their 2 relationship was personally, did you? 3 A. No, I did not. 4 Q. Okay. But you trust and believe the 5 versions of what they have told you? 6 A. And, also, I guess his mother, and 7 then also her mother. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Again, they -- I don't want to 10 mislead that they -- either one of them told me 11 everything was perfect and they never had arguments or 12 fights. I think that both of them, which is one of the 13 reasons that I tended to believe them, did admit, to 14 fights and disagreements, and you know, problems that 15 regular married people have in their relationship. 16 And I think also, his mother and her 17 mother both were very much the same way, in that they 18 didn't paint this couple as just being the perfect 19 idyllic couple, but they were just a normal, happy, 20 married couple, with problems that came up, and 21 disagreements, and faults and weaknesses and that sort of 22 thing. 23 But, everybody, again, I feel like was 24 very forthright and truthful in their descriptions of 25 them. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4724 1 Q. Okay. What it boils down to is this, 2 I guess: It happened one of two ways, some stranger came 3 in and did this horrible killing; or, you have been 4 fooled by the defendant and she did it? 5 A. Well, I think there is another 6 possible explanation is that, maybe this wasn't -- and I 7 know that both of them have told the police, on numerous 8 occasions that there were some different individuals that 9 might have had some motive. 10 Q. Who are these people? 11 A. They're -- I guess, a man that had 12 worked around where they did at the shop. I guess his 13 name is Glenn. And that he had made threats against 14 them, and he had allegedly kind of come on to Basia. 15 His wife had called up Darlie, and 16 talked to her, and Darlie had told the man's wife, call 17 Basia, and I guess Basia told the man, yes, that he had 18 made threats to come on to her, and, that this man -- 19 Q. Let me stop you there for a second, 20 and I will let you continue. Who was telling you this 21 about this man named Glenn? 22 A. Both Darlie and Darin. 23 Q. Okay. Okay. And this is a man that 24 threatened them, you say, or they told you that -- Darlie 25 told you this man named Glenn had threatened her? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4725 1 A. Yes, that he had made some threats, 2 and she also told me that she had told the police 3 detectives about this. 4 Q. When did she say she told the police 5 detectives this? 6 A. From the very beginning, it's my 7 understanding. 8 Q. Did she think that this man was the 9 one that came in there? 10 A. She didn't identify him as being a -- 11 specifically, but she thought that he might have -- he -- 12 you know, he was someone with possibly a motive, because 13 he had just gotten a divorce and lost his rights to his 14 kids, essentially because of this whole deal with his 15 wife and Basia and Darlie, not -- I guess not lying for 16 him. 17 Q. Okay. And so, she says she told the 18 police that this man, Glenn, might be the one? 19 A. Yes. And she said that, I guess, a 20 couple of weeks prior to the murder the divorce was 21 final, he had lost custody of his little boy, he 22 supposedly has a history of being somewhat physically 23 abusive, and had been arrested several times for 24 fighting, and that a lot of people are afraid of him 25 because of his temper. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4726 1 Q. Okay. Does he look anything like the 2 man she saw leaving the house? 3 A. We didn't really go into that. I 4 mean, when I was talking about -- this is just more of 5 her expressing her frustration with the police not 6 looking at any leads. 7 Q. So she says that she told the police 8 that this man named Glenn has threatened me, and y'all 9 need to check him out? 10 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head 11 affirmatively.) 12 Q. Okay. Anyone else? Did she give 13 anyone else as a suspect? 14 A. Well, my understanding is that she 15 told, I guess, the detectives, Patterson and Frosch, 16 this. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And, I don't know about anybody since 19 then. 20 Q. Okay. That is the only one then? 21 A. The only police? 22 Q. The only suspect? 23 A. Oh, yes, that was the only -- yeah, 24 that was the one that she mentioned to me. 25 Q. Okay. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4727 1 2 MR. TOBY SHOOK: That is all we have, 3 Judge. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder. 5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I'll be brief. 6 7 8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9 10 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 11 Q. Frustrated with the police and their 12 investigation? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. All right. Just a thing or two, and I 15 will be brief. But when I first contacted you I told you 16 that I had just got into this case, a week or ten days, 17 or two weeks ago, or whatever. 18 19 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, I will object 20 to the leading. 21 THE COURT: Well -- 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, they 23 brought it up. 24 THE COURT: Well, go ahead, Mr. 25 Mulder. I think that is offered merely, what is being Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4728 1 said, not for the truth of the matters asserted, but 2 let's just go ahead and be brief, Mr. Mulder. 3 4 5 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 6 Q. You understand that I had just 7 recently come into the case? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. All right. And, I told you that you 10 could see -- 11 12 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, I will object 13 to that. That is hearsay. 14 THE COURT: I'll sustain that. 15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, this was 16 gone into. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 19 20 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 21 Q. You set up the guidelines - - 22 23 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Judge, was that 24 sustained? 25 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder, phrase your Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4729 1 questions properly. 2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 3 THE COURT: All right, go ahead. 4 5 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 6 Q. You set up the terms under which you 7 wanted to see Darlie, did you not? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And I agreed to them? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. You just said that you would tell the 12 truth, regardless of what it was? 13 14 MR. TOBY SHOOK: I will object to 15 leading and bolstering. 16 THE COURT: I will sustain as to the 17 bolstering. The jury is instructed to disregard the 18 comments of the witness. Next question. Go ahead, 19 please. 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 21 22 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 23 Q. And, I dare say, in the majority of 24 the cases in which you are hired, you probably don't end 25 up testifying, do you? Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4730 1 A. In the capital, when I am hired, I 2 have been hired several times by the defense in capital 3 murder cases, and, yes, I don't usually testify, because 4 when I come back, I give my honest opinion, after I have 5 interviewed the person, and done the evaluation. 6 And when I come back, most often, what 7 I say, the defense doesn't want to use me, because, I say 8 the person either admits it to me when they didn't admit 9 it to the police or in court. Or, that they are lying, 10 and they have got a history of being anti-social, and, 11 you know, I can't say anything good about this 12 individual. 13 So, yeah, most of the time in capital 14 murder cases, I am not asked to testify by the defense 15 when they -- when I have been hired to evaluate them. 16 Q. Okay. You made a statement to Mr. 17 Shook on cross examination that you could make a valid 18 assessment, even though you didn't get the truth, or even 19 though people lied to you, or give you false information 20 about a situation. You said that you could still make a 21 valid assessment. 22 Will you clear that up, so that -- I 23 know where you going on it, but will you clear that up 24 for the jury? 25 A Well, I am just saying that I have Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4731 1 interviewed a lot of criminal defendants, and I can 2 assess, even when they are lying to me, a valid 3 assessment that they are lying to me. 4 I don't -- you know, the way he was 5 making the question, it would be every one would have to 6 tell me the truth in order for me to make a valid 7 assessment, and that is not the case. 8 I can make a valid assessment if 9 someone is lying to me, when they are lying to me. 10 Q. Okay. You have furnished Mr. Shook 11 with copies of all of your notes? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Okay. And in that, in the notes, you 14 had questioned Darlie or she had told you about dreams 15 that she had had about these events? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Can you briefly tell us what the 18 dreams were? 19 A. Well -- 20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: That is my last 21 question, Judge. 22 23 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Shook may have 24 some further cross. 25 THE WITNESS: Would you -- in my Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4732 1 notes, I don't know where in my notes -- I know that she 2 talked about having dreams -- 3 4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: 5 Q. Nightmares or dreams? 6 A. Well, yes, I was just trying to see 7 where, I don't have them numbered. Oh, she said 5 to 7 8 times she had dreamed of laying on the couch with this 9 man laying on her, touching her, that the knife is on her 10 chin, he was saying something, but she couldn't see him. 11 She was fighting him. 12 He falls off, hits the coffee table, 13 and lands on Damon, stabbing him. That she was beating 14 him, hitting him, and he reaches over and tries to stab 15 patient. She wakes up at that point, and she said that 16 in some of the dreams that she saw the man wearing a 17 baseball cap, and sometimes she didn't. 18 And that she had the dream several 19 times within that first month of what had happened. 20 Q. Okay. 21 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's 23 all. We will pass the witness. 24 MR. TOBY SHOOK:: Nothing further, 25 Judge. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4733 1 THE COURT: You may step down, ma'am. 2 3 (Whereupon, the witness 4 was excused from the courtroom.) 5 6 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and 7 gentlemen, we're going to be recessed until tomorrow 8 morning, at 9:00 o'clock. Same instructions as always: 9 Do no investigation on your own. Do not speak about this 10 case with anybody. The case is not over yet. 11 If someone tries to talk to you, tell 12 the bailiff who is with you at the time. Do no 13 investigation on your own. You will decide this case 14 from the testimony you hear, and the evidence that you 15 will receive in this courtroom. 16 Will everybody please stop moving 17 their books and have a seat, please, just a minute. 18 All right. This case, the publicity 19 is rampant about this, it may be on the radio, or T.V., 20 or in the newspapers, if it is, please ignore anything, 21 you see or hear, and it would be a good idea not to read 22 the papers, listen to the radio, or see T.V., while this 23 case is going on. 24 Wear your juror badge at all times, 25 and see you tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4734 1 2 (Whereupon, the jury 3 was excused from the 4 courtroom, and the 5 proceedings were held 6 in the presence of the 7 defendant, with her 8 attorney, but outside 9 the presence of the jury 10 as follows:) 11 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 13 Can the attorneys please remain? 14 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Can Dr. Clayton 15 go? 16 THE COURT: Dr. Clayton and Dr. 17 DiMaio, you are free to go. Please do not discuss your 18 testimony with anybody. Ma'am, particularly with the 19 T.V. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not saying anything. 21 THE COURT: If this shows up on the 22 T.V., that would be a violation, and you could end up in 23 the Kerr County jail. 24 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not saying 25 anything. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4735 1 THE COURT: All right. I understand 2 that we may be -- I understand that we may be 3 approaching -- you willing be closing -- you will have 4 one more witness, Mr. Mulder; is that it? 5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I didn't say that 6 I have one more witness. 7 THE COURT: Well, do you or don't you? 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I told you 9 that I would take three days, and I will finish up by 10 noon tomorrow. 11 THE COURT: All right. By noon 12 tomorrow. Excuse me, I don't mean one more, but you will 13 be finished by noon tomorrow, is that right? 14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I will indeed, 15 your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. So if there is 17 any rebuttal coming on, you will have witnesses ready? 18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: And, I assume you will 20 have some sur-rebuttal is that correct? 21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, it depends 22 on the rebuttal. 23 THE COURT: I understand that. But, 24 if you will have any sur-rebuttal witnesses ready then we 25 can do that too. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4736 1 When do both sides anticipate finally 2 resting and closing? 3 MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER: Well, Judge -- 4 THEH COURT: We won't hold you down. 5 I understand. 6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, then it 7 kind of depends on them. You wouldn't want me to put my 8 rebuttal on now, do you? 9 THE COURT: Well, that would be 10 wonderful. It would be nice of you. 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I don't 12 know what the rebuttal will be until I hear theirs. 13 THE COURT: Well, I understand what 14 you are saying. But do you think that we will be able to 15 get this to the jury by Friday? That is what I am asking 16 both sides. Do you think that is a possibility? 17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Anything is 18 possible, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Well, I know it is, but it 20 may not be probable. Do you think it is legally probable 21 that we might get that done? 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, it kind of 23 depends on their -- 24 THE COURT: I understand. 25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, do you want Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4737 1 me to comment on it or not? 2 THE COURT: Well, do you think that is 3 possible? 4 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, it depends 5 on their rebuttal. 6 THE COURT: I understand. 7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: If they have a 8 day's worth of rebuttal, then it probably won't be 9 possible. 10 THE COURT: Well, I don't think it's 11 going to be that long. 12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. 13 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Doug, do you mean 14 by that, you would be finished by tomorrow at noon, is 15 that our cross examination of your witnesses as well? 16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I would think 17 that with reasonable cross examination, then I will be 18 finished tomorrow at noon, or so. 19 THE COURT: All right. Well, here's 20 the thing. Well, I assume Mr. Hagler is going to be in 21 charge of the Charge; is that correct? For your side. 22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: He will do the 23 "haggling" for our side. 24 THE COURT: That is fine. 25 And, who will do the haggling for the Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4738 1 State's side? 2 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, I don't know 3 that there will be haggling here. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, all right. 5 Well, whatever will be. 6 MR. GREG DAVIS: We will find someone. 7 THE COURT: Well, let's get someone to 8 get on the Charge because the Charge is pretty well done. 9 When we do get into argument, by agreement it is an hour 10 and a half to the side; is that correct? 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir. 12 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. 13 THE COURT: Any number of lawyers can 14 argue, but the total to each side is just going to get an 15 hour and a half. 16 So, on that note we will see everybody 17 tomorrow morning, 9:00 o'clock. Let's have all the 18 witnesses, rebuttal and sur-rebuttal ready to go if 19 necessary. 20 MR. GREG DAVIS: I can tell you that 21 we will have some of them, we may not have all of them 22 here tomorrow. 23 THE COURT: I understand. 24 MR. GREG DAVIS: But we will do our 25 very best. Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4739 1 THE COURT: I understand what you are 2 saying, we will just do the best we can do. 3 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, if we go 4 into -- if we go into Thursday, does that mean that we 5 are going to argue Thursday or does that mean that we are 6 going to argue Friday? 7 THE COURT: Well, I would like to -- 8 what I ideally like to do is finish up and have arguments 9 in the morning and then give the case to the jury. That 10 is what I would like to do. 11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Argue Friday? 12 THE COURT: Yes, or whenever -- you 13 know. I mean, both sides will put on their cases. 14 Obviously, if it runs through Friday, we are not going to 15 do it. But I am saying if we could do it, I would like 16 to argue first in the morning, and then give the case to 17 the jury during the day. 18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I think 19 that is -- 20 THE COURT: As opposed to arguing in 21 the evening and giving the jury -- giving the case to 22 them then. 23 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Are you going to 24 sequester the jury? 25 THE COURT: Well, it depends on what Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4740 1 you want to do. Do both sides want them sequestered? It 2 depends. If you don't want them sequestered, I will 3 certainly consider that. 4 Why don't you think about it and let 5 me know. You don't have to make an ironclad statement 6 now. Just think about it, and let me know what you want 7 to do. 8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. We will do 9 that. 10 See you in the morning. 11 THE COURT: You bet. 12 13 (Whereupon, the jury was 14 previously excused, and 15 the proceedings were 16 recessed for the 17 day, to return on the 18 next day, January 29th, 1997, 19 at 9:00 A.M.) 20 21 22 (These proceedings are continued to 23 the next volume in this cause.) 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4741 1 CERTIFICATION PAGE 2 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) 3 THE COUNTY OF DALLAS ) 4 I, Sandra M. Halsey, was the Official Court 5 Reporter of Criminal District Court Number 3, of Dallas 6 County, Texas, do hereby certify that I reported in 7 Stenograph notes the foregoing proceedings, and that they 8 have been edited by me, or under my direction and the 9 foregoing transcript contains a full, true, complete and 10 accurate transcript of the proceedings held in this 11 matter, to the best of my knowledge. 12 I further certify that this transcript of the 13 proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits, if 14 any, offered by the respective parties. 15 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO, this _____ day of 16 ___________, 1997. 17 __________________________________ 18 Sandra M. Day Halsey, CSR 19 Official Court Reporter 20 363RD Judicial District Court 21 Dallas County, Texas 22 Phone, (214) 653-5893 23 24 Cert. No. 308 25 Exp 12-31-98 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4742 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF DALLAS) 3 4 JUDGES CERTIFICATE 5 6 7 8 The above and foregoing transcript, as certified 9 by the Official Court Reporter, having been presented to 10 me, has been examined and is approved as a true and 11 correct transcript of the proceedings had in the 12 foregoing styled cause, and aforementioned cause number 13 of this case. 14 15 16 17 18 19 __________________________________ 20 MARK TOLLE, JUDGE 21 Criminal District Court Number 3 22 Dallas County, Texas 23 24 25 Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 4743